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Episode 18: The safety of raw vs kibble

00:00:33 Glenn:      Hi everyone. Just before we kick off this episode, something happened in the raw feeding world, which warrants a little further explanation just because of the severity that it had. So what I'm gonna do is hand you over to Narelle so she can talk to you about it. 'cause it is sort of a caveat before we kick the show off because we talked about this subject in the show. And Narelle being as responsible as she is, thought that, as I said, warrants further explanation.  

00:00:55 Narelle:       It just so happened we recorded the podcast that you're about to hear before this event happened. So what happened in Victoria in Australia? At this stage, 10 dogs have died and about 50 are sick. The reason for that is that they ate raw food, allegedly from a knackery. The cause of the deaths was liver toxicity and they still don't know what it was exactly in the food that's causing the deaths and the liver toxicity. So it's still a ‘watch this space’. But I guess what I wanna highlight in relation to this around raw food feeding, is that the regulations and the standards around pet food that comes out of knackeries is really poor. And it does vary from state to state. I don't actually know the detailed ins and outs of the requirements for knackeries, but I do know that the animal welfare requirements can vary from state to state in terms of what the knackeries need to adhere to and apply to.  

00:01:47 Narelle:        But this is where it becomes really important to know where the food is coming from, that you're feeding your dog. Knackeries are really poorly regulated and the quality of the food is what’s not acceptable for the human consumption market. Whereas in abattoirs, their standards are much higher because anything produced in an abattoir is going for human consumption. So that's the difference between knackeries and abattoirs in Australia anyway. So when it comes to products that we feed our dogs, Big Dog raw food, Big Dog only source their meat from abattoirs. So everything they source is for human consumption. So the regulations and the standards around that food are significantly higher. So they're not associated in any way with what's been happening with the dogs that have been getting sick.  

00:02:32 Glenn:       I'm sure they put up a mission statement over that on their website that people can go check out.  

00:02:36 Narelle:       Yeah, they've put statements out on all their social media channels around that, that it doesn't affect their produce at all because they use the highest quality produce for our dogs, which is how it should be.  

00:02:46 Glenn:       What happens in any industry across the world is that you'll always have people who raise the ceilings and aspire to all the recommended standards that are put out for safety regulations, et cetera, et cetera. But you always get these outliers that do things cheaply or do things on the short. And again, I'm saying allegedly because the cause of what happened with these pets hasn't actually been outlined yet. But where they smoke, there's fire sometimes. So we just have to be careful with this. But as I'm saying, the outliers in the industry, the ones who cut corners, the ones who do things cheaply, the ones who rush their product out to market and don't go through all the extraordinary checks and balances like companies like Big Dog and other very ethical companies out there who are doing a great thing, they bring the standard down and that's where the focus goes. And it shouldn't, it should be on, well you are not doing it right. Doesn't mean all these other great companies aren't doing it. 

00:03:34 Narelle:        Yeah, and just before we wrap it up, whether you're feeding kibble or whether you're feeding raw, there is a spectrum of quality. So if you are choosing, and you get what you pay for, so if you are choosing a poorer quality product, then I guess that comes with risks.  

00:03:48 Glenn:      Well let's kick off the episode. Welcome back to Natural Health for People and Pets. I'm co-host of the show, Glen Cooke, and I'm joined by the host of the show, Narelle Cooke.  

00:03:59 Narelle:      Hi everyone,  

00:04:00 Glenn:        Back again for another episode.

00:07:28 Narelle:        Let's get on to today's topic, which is another sort of a bit of a controversial topic. I wanna talk about the safety of raw food versus kibble, because it regularly comes up on social media. There's so many pet owners that express concerns, mainly on Facebook, where they've gone to their vet and told their vet that they've started to feed raw. And their vet is just all over them saying, you know, don't, don't, you know, that's so dangerous. It's dangerous for you, it's dangerous for your dog, it's dangerous for your kids and your family. And like you're all gonna die. And they just scaremonger them about the risks of raw food feeding.  

00:07:59    Glenn:     I'm sure we've said this before. But it befuddles me that they're talking about handling raw foods. What do we handle when we go shopping for ourselves on a daily basis? You are handling raw chicken. Raw beef, raw lamb, all of those types of foods. Why aren't we dropping dead?  

00:08:15 Narelle:        Exactly. And I'm in a little bit, I'm gonna just sort of highlight the absurdity in what the actual human situation is in contrast to the dog situation. So yeah, we'll get to that in a little bit more detail, but one of the main reasons we're told to feed our dogs these heavily processed, chemically treated, chemically preserved foods, over fresh meat-based products is because the claim is that they are safer from a microbial contamination point of view for both our dogs and us. But while the rendering and the extrusion processes, I mean they do help to kill bacteria and preserve foods but processing absolutely does not guarantee safety. Like that is such a huge misconception.  

00:08:53 Glenn:        Hence why there's been a lot of product recalls on the market.  

00:08:56 Narelle:        Yep. So by the end of the show, people will have an absolutely clear idea of just what the situation is and it's so not what the vets and the authorities are telling us to be.  

00:09:06 Glenn:        I should say not all vets, and not all authorities. So we've gotta be fair 'cause there are, you know, some great vets out there as well who are giving some really balanced advice as well.  

00:09:14 Narelle:        Yeah, that's true. Let's not generalise. When kibble’s made, a lot of the time, not always, but a lot of the companies, they do use the absolute poorest quality low grade ingredients, such as what's called or referred to as the four D’s, dead, dying, diseased and disabled. Which means they could be scraping roadkill up and putting it in kibble.  

00:09:36 Glenn:        So we're not saying they are, we're just saying they could be.  

00:09:39 Narelle:        They could be. It's known to happen in some kibbles, in some places.  

00:09:42 Glenn:       Well, the old product standard for what they used to be called in the industry was fallen meat.  

00:09:48 Narelle:        Okay.  

00:09:48 Glenn:        So it's an animal that's died in a paddock and it's been thrown on the back of a ute and driven out to the cannery.  

00:09:58 Narelle:        Rather than going through the formal slaughtering process. Things like that. But the thing is, the processing treatments that they use, such as the rendering and extrusion processes, they're absolutely necessary when you're using a poor quality ingredient that's a high bacterial contamination load. So they need those full on processes to kill off as much bacteria as possible. Whereas by necessity, raw foods, they have to start with a much higher quality ingredient because they don't have the luxury of that processing in those temperatures to kill off high contamination. So they have to start with a cleaner product. The crazy thing is the regulators, particularly when I was looking into this in more depth, most of the information is coming out of the US. In the US they allocate far more resources, like the authorities, and more time monitoring raw foods, which actually leaves processed foods under-regulated, even though they're known to use contaminated ingredients. And they've been linked to so many outbreaks, resulting not just in illness and death to tens and thousands of pets, but also human illness. But no one's watching them. The whole focus is on raw foods and just trying to pick up anything that they can sort of blame them for and I've no doubt that there's like a lot of politics behind this war on raw as I read it somewhere, which I really liked  

00:11:15 Glenn:        The war on raw. Okay wow.  

00:11:20 Narelle:        Yeah. So I really like that so I'm using that now. But for authorities, like the FDA to continually state that quote, ‘raw pet food diets can be dangerous to you and your pet’ and to discourage its use, it just doesn't make any sense. And you know, as you mentioned at the beginning of the show, especially when we compare it to the human situation. If we look at the human food situation and the associated health risks. Iin Australia, food poisoning affects, they state, around 4 million people each year. But in the US there was a 2015 report that stated that 48 million Americans suffer from a food-borne illness each year and 3000 die from it. That's crazy and you know, the main reason for that, that was outlined in the report is people aren't cooking their food properly. People aren't storing their food at the correct temperatures. They've got poor hygiene when they're handling food. There's cross-contamination with food prep. And the top culprits are actually fresh fruit and vegetables. So particularly things like tomato and zucchini. Sprouts are notorious for contamination, leafy greens and some fruits. But you know, no government is calling for a ban on fresh fruit and veggies in favour of highly processed or canned versions, even though millions of people are getting sick and thousands of people are dying each year from fruit and veg.  

00:12:37 Glenn:        Wow. That's just crazy.  

00:12:39 Narelle:        Even closer to home in New South Wales. Just last year, a 2020 report by the New South Wales Food Authority stated that nearly 26% of raw chicken samples that were taken from supermarket shelves, intended for human consumption, tested positive for salmonella and 90% tested positive for Campylobacter. So that's just another food poisoning bacteria. And then the report went on to state that there's been an increase in the number of food poisonings due to supermarket eggs. But again, their advice wasn't to ban chicken and eggs, but rather, and I quote from the report, ‘for consumers to be more careful with food preparation and storage’  and yet, you know, there's this…

00:13:21 Glenn:        Stigma. 

00:13:22 Narelle:       Well I just get so rolled up by it. So the issue isn't the raw food, it's about poor education. And in a lot of instances, just poor common sense.  

00:13:30 Glenn:        I know I'm repeating myself from earlier, but it just befuddles me how they talk about raw pets and yet we're handling raw food ourselves. It just befuddles me. I just don't get it. It makes no sense. When I've had these discussions with people before, and they kind of look at you like you're an idiot. And I'm thinking, really I'm the idiot? Like when you go home and you are doing a barbecue, are you handling raw meat and then washing your hands afterwards while you put them on the barbecue? Or are you just handling raw meat and sticking your fingers straight in your mouth? I know. I'm ranting myself, but where you get rolled up about it. Like you read things on the internet and you just think, what pill are you on?  

00:14:10 Narelle:        So bringing it back to pets, there's one paper I was reading that summarised the US pet food recalls that the FDA had published between 2007 and 2018. And of those, because the topic is raw versus kibble, kibble and canned pet foods combined accounted for more than 93% of all pet food recalls. Whereas raw pet food accounted for less than 0.5%, and dehydrated and freeze dried pet foods was even less again. So it was like 0.03%. So just minuscule, and salmonella contamination is actually the number one reason for kibble recalls in the US. So everyone's bagging raw, but salmonella in kibble is the main reason for recalls. And between 2012 and 2019, 68,000 tons of dry food was recalled for containing pathogenic bacteria. Whereas during that same time, only 900 tons of raw food was recalled. We're not saying there aren't risks to raw food.  

00:15:08 Glenn:        There's risks to everything,  

00:15:09 Narelle:        But 900 tons versus 68,000 tons. I mean, that sort of puts it into perspective. And since 2007, 134 people roughly have been known to have contracted salmonella from dry pet food. And over half of these are children less than two years of age, which is scary, so despite this risk to toddlers when do you ever hear warnings about kibble from your vet or the authorities? And in comparison to that, from what I could gather, less than 10 adults have become sick due to a raw food product. And I couldn't see any instances of children getting sick from a raw food product.  

00:15:43 Glenn:        And to be honest, if we didn't have the internet these days, we probably wouldn't know a lot of this because the marketing spin doctors would've covered it up by now. I mean, even to avoid a product's brand not being damaged, they spin it away from it straight away. So they're distracting you and saying, oh look at this pretty colour in the corner instead.  

00:16:03 Glenn:        We've rebranded it and put a different colour on the packet. So now it's completely different and it's all good. But look, to be honest, if it does help the companies raise their bar and raise the ceilings, that's a good thing.  

00:16:14 Narelle:        There's a really interesting case that involved raw pet food, like human illness caused by raw pet food. And it was in the UK and there was an e coli outbreak involving a particularly virulent strain of e coli, which is called the sugar toxin producing e coli. And they'd linked this particular strain to some raw pet food. And I think it was the tripe in particular. So four adults got infected and one person actually died because they developed a kidney complication from it. But this is where common sense really comes into it because one of the people that got sick was brushing his dog's teeth using his own toothbrush.  

00:16:52 Glenn:        Oh my God.  

00:16:54    Narelle:     So it wouldn't have probably wouldn't have mattered what the person was feeding their dog. Chances are they were gonna get sick, they just happened to be feeding the raw food to their dog. I mean that's so working against the cause of raw food feeding when you're sharing toothbrushes with your dog. 

00:17:10 Glenn:        To be honest, well, I let our dogs lick my face and I usually wash my face afterwards and so forth.  

00:17:17 Narelle:      I know you can't avoid it. 

00:17:18 Glenn:       You can’t avoid it sometimes, like sometimes when you're on the ground and Ladybug or Pixel runs over and starts licking your ear or something like that. But when I see people on YouTube with their mouth open and their dog licking inside their mouth, yeah. I mean that curdles my stomach to be honest. Just jumping back onto this topic again where people are talking about the raw pet food thing. People have said to me before, it's irresponsible for me to talk about influencing other people, to allow this raw feeding phenomenon to take place without discussing the risk behind it. But as I've said to them, wear gloves and wash your hands and wash the bench down later with isopropyl alcohol or something like that. Or a normal thing that you would do when you're cooking your own food. Be sanitary and be clean.  

00:18:00 Glenn:       And they're saying, yeah, but once you feed it to the dog and it's in the dog's mouth, then the dog can lick you and get it. And I've said, if you wash your dogs carefully as we do and we, you know as trainers or owners and so forth, dogs go out and eat animal shit off the ground. They lick bird poo and they eat possum poos and you know, our dogs are notorious for doing things like that. How are you going to stop that from happening when you are not supervising your dog's activity all the time? And you don't know what sort of bacteria is floating around in your dog's mouth. These sort of things are gonna happen. We've sort of got into a silly area. 

00:18:35 Narelle:        Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure I heard or read somewhere recently that dogs have a lot of antimicrobial and antibacterial compounds in their saliva. And whatever it was, I heard it said that you're more likely to get manky bacteria from kissing your partner than from like your dog sticking his tongue in your mouth accidentally.  

00:18:53 Glenn:       I have heard, I'd like to confirm it if there's anybody out there who actually knows, but I've heard that you are 10 times more likely to get an infection in your bloodstream from being bitten by a human than you are by a dog.  

00:19:04 Narelle:       That's interesting. Yes, if anyone knows,  

00:19:07 Glenn:        If anyone knows, let us know. But it could be an urban myth. I'm not entirely sure.  

00:19:12 Narelle:       Yeah. So I just wanna finish up on that UK e coli outbreak. So a review of more than 2000 sugar toxin producing e coli cases between 2013 and 2017 found that handling raw pet food was reported in 12 patients. So 0.6% of all cases and only nine of those 12 were infected with the actual human pathogenic strain of e coli. So that's 0.5%. So my point is 99.5% of human contamination with this virulent strain of e coli came from sources other than the raw pet food. But all the focus is on whenever one case happens with raw pet food, that's the headlines. Whereas what about the other 99% of cases that are happening that aren't due to raw pet food, you know, due to human contaminated food or wherever they're picking it up from the environment. So it's very, what's the word? Myopic?  

00:20:05 Glenn:        Yeah, myopic  

00:20:06 Narelle:       And a research group from the University of Helsinki called Dog Risk. And if you haven't checked out their website, do, there's lots of amazing research coming out from them about raw food diets and just more natural approaches to dog health and nutrition. So they surveyed 16, just under 16 and a half thousand households from 81 countries around the world, and the household owners had to fill out a survey, and only 24 households suspected contamination from pet food. And only three of those were able to actually match the pathogen in the meat fed to the dog as the same pathogen that infected the human. And all of them were e coli. So again, 99.6% of the household survey that fed their dogs raw food on a daily basis, didn't report any illnesses or issues in terms of transmission or getting sick. So again, the focus is so skewed to the minority of cases when in most instances, not really an issue.  

00:21:00 Narelle:       And again, you know, there's always that talk about shedding of pathogenic bacteria in faeces, and there was a study that assessed the levels of pathogenic bacteria in the faeces of dogs fed a raw meat-based diet, compared to dogs fed a kibble based diet. Because you know, the assumption is that the raw fed dogs are gonna have much more pathogenic bacteria in their poo than the kibble based dogs. And while in this particular case, some bacteria were more frequently detected in the faeces of the dogs for the raw food, but the difference wasn't statistically significant. So again, it's so easy to take that information and make it sound like something it’s not, but from a scientific point of view, you can't say there's any difference in it. And then when they actually assessed the species of campylobacter that came out in the raw food group, you know, it's like the e coli case.  

00:21:50 Narelle:        There were no typical human pathogenic species identified. So just because something's present, it doesn't automatically mean it's a problem. So with e coli you can have hugely virulent strains of e coli and you can have just commensal on our body everyday sort of e coli that's not causing any problems. With campylobacter, there's again, more virulent and less virulent strains. So you know, pet owners, they're constantly bombarded with information on the dangers of raw pet foods, but you just don't hear of the dangers of kibble despite the number of published recalls and outbreaks linked exclusively to kibble, including the largest pet recall in industry history, which isn't a bacterial one, but that's that melamine recall back in 2007 where like nearly 50,000 dogs got sick. Nearly 15,000 from memory died. I know that doesn't affect humans, but we're not physically getting sick. But it affects humans in terms of, you know, no one wants their dog dying of chemical contamination of the food they're feeding them.  

00:22:47 Glenn:        And it's just incomprehensible that that was ever allowed to happen.  

00:22:51 Narelle:       Yeah. And look, it probably is still going on to some extent, we just don't know about it. But it's not just bacterial contamination of kibble that pet owners need to worry about. So dry food is also notorious for containing mycotoxins. So mycotoxins, they're poisonous chemical compounds that are produced by moulds and they live on different types of food, but the main source of their growth are grains like corn. So the problem with mycotoxins in kibble is that cooking doesn't destroy the spore. So the rendering and extrusion process of kibble is really great at killing bacterial contamination, but it doesn't kill mycotoxin contamination. Kibble these days is, you know, in most instances, not everyone, but you know, up to 60% of a bag of kibble can be grain-based. And again, because it's pet food, they're not using high quality grains. It's all the sort of human reject stock that's sitting there getting mouldy on the concrete slab that gets pushed into it.  

00:23:49 Glenn:       And if anyone doesn't know too, you actually have a Bachelor's in Agricultural Science.  

00:23:54 Narelle:        I do. 

00:23:55 Glenn:        That was your first job.  

00:23:56 Narelle:       25 years ago.  

00:23:58 Glenn:        And used to study moulds and spores. 

00:24:01 Narelle:        I loved fungi. I was a plant pathologist for 10 years, so right up my alley. But you know, studies have shown, you know, a hundred percent of dry foods tested came back positive for mycotoxins. You know, even long-term exposure to low levels in pet foods has been shown to cause health problems in dogs, particularly relating to the liver. But even cancer's being associated with mycotoxin intake. And the main thing with mycotoxins, like the main one we have to worry about is called aflatoxin. And it's actually known or deemed to be one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man. 

00:24:39 Glenn:       What is it again? Say it again.  

00:24:41 Narelle:        Aflatoxin. So aflatoxin is a type of mycotoxin, which is a type of mould that you find a lot on grains. So even though that's like the presence of mycotoxins in kibble, it's not likely to affect pet owners like the bacterial salmonella contamination unless people are sticking their head in the bag or they're, you know, eating it themselves, or licking their fingers after playing with it. But there have been lots of documented deaths in dogs due to consuming food contaminated with mycotoxins. And they say that mycotoxins pose one of the most serious health threats to our pets today. So that's no good. Another health concern from kibble, and this one affects humans too, is storage mites. It might sound really sort of benign, well storage mites, big deal. But they're actually a source of potential allergens in dogs. So they're known to contribute to atopic dermatitis in dogs.  

00:25:31 Narelle:        Which is just like an eczema for dogs. And again, lots of studies have shown that, you know, when they test products the majority come back positive for mites. One tested commercial dog foods in Australia, so previously unopened bags of dog food, and as soon as they open them they're able to get a positive reading for viable live mites. But it was to such an extent that the authors of the paper said that that level is likely to lead to heavy storage mite contamination if the kibble is stored under less than ideal conditions. So higher temperatures and higher humidity, which a lot of people tip their bags of kibble into big bins and leave it in a garage, or somewhere where there is a lot of temperature fluctuations, and that is the worst for a lot of reasons beyond storage mite.  

00:26:15 Narelle:        But that's the worst thing you can do with storing your kibble. But the way it impacts human health is that if people or pet owners, you know, are tipping bags of kibble into bins or just scooping it out, that any inhalation of those mites or even like the metabolic byproducts of the mites, or the faeces of the mites has been shown to trigger asthma, allergic rhinitis, contact dermatitis, enteritis, and even anaphylaxis in some people. So another red cross for kibble. Again, we are taught to be super careful when handling raw meats for ourselves, but the same level of education just isn't given when it comes to handling dry food such as kibble. And you think about it, most people are so lax, I'm not ever since I've learnt more over the last few years about the dangers of contamination in kibble. But most people are so lax about washing their hands after they've handled, you know, those jerky treats or if you pick up a handful of dry food to treat your dog or feed your dog, I think that all the trainers out there with like kibble in their pockets, in their little training pouches and a lot of it getting really manky ‘'cause it's there for too long.  

00:27:21 Glenn:        They'll then go and stick their fingers in their mouth or something straight afterwards.  

00:27:25 Narelle:        Well if you're training dogs all day, you know, using kibble as a reward treat,  

00:27:30 Glenn:        Carry some hand sanitizer with you.  

00:27:31 Narelle:        Well I mean it's inevitable that people are gonna put their fingers in their, like rub their eyes, their mouth and maybe pick their nose. But yeah, just have lunch, have a drink and they're not gonna be washing their hands after every time they touch a piece of kibble. But you know, the evidence shows that kibble is highly contaminated in many instances with salmonella. So if you're a trainer and you feel like you're getting sick more often than the average person, maybe think about kibble as a potential source and needing to wash your hands a little bit more. Or you know, the jerky type. I always, when I'm moving our dogs around, I always break off a bit of jerky treat to give them. every time I do now, as soon as I come back inside I wash my hands. It's good habits and you know, young kids can easily pick up a handful of dry food from the dog's bowl, things like that. So it's just, again, coming back to common sense, but because people aren't aware of the risks of kibble.

00:28:19 Glenn:        Well you kind of think, oh it's cooked, it's all done and dusted. There's nothing more to worry about.  

00:28:23 Narelle:        That's right. And so people do have a meal and lick their fingers after handling dog food. Dry dog food. So I guess to sort of bring things to a close, I'm not dismissing the risks of raw food feeding,  

00:28:34 Glenn:        And we're not anti kibble.  

00:28:36 Narelle:        No. It's just about awareness. Like I said, all the blame is being put on raw food and there's just no education about the risks connected with kibble, because it's a dry food.  

00:28:48 Glenn:        But there are kibble companies that are getting better and their industry best practices are improving because subjects like this are being more highlighted in the public now. There is a demand for better practices and better ethics behind the manufacturer of pet foods and so forth. Which is absolutely fantastic because as we said before, there's just some deplorable behavior in some of these pet food manufacturing full stop, where it's great to be aligned with companies like Big Dog and so forth that we're aligned with that do have exceptional quality and standards. And that's great to see.  

00:29:20 Narelle:        Yeah and I mean there are some people that are at more risk of infectious disease or sort of contamination from food, whether it's human food, whether it's raw dog food, whether it's kibble. Small children, the elderly, anyone who's immunocompromised, just really sick. They need to be even more vigilant regardless of whether it's raw, kibble or human. Again, so that comes back to common sense. And again, remember we said at the start of the show, there are far more instances of food poisoning in a human illness due to contaminated human foods compared to dog foods. So I just keep coming back to, why is the message being put out there that we should be depriving our dogs of a species appropriate raw food diet that they naturally thrive on. It's what they're designed to eat because of pathogen concerns, when the bulk of the evidence relating to outbreaks, recalls, illness and deaths for our pets is due to kibble and canned food.  

00:30:12 Narelle:        And if anyone is not currently feeding raw because they've been too afraid of the health risks. The easiest way to get started is by using a high quality commercial product such as the Big Dog, raw patties because there's no mess. You're not cutting up raw muscle meats and organ meats and there's not blood all over the kitchen and utensils contaminated with anything. You literally cut open an individual packet, pop it in your dog's bowl, wash your hands, wash the fork. That's a really easy way to start. So if you've got a vet that has been down on you about your raw food feeding or you wanting to feed raw, but you're not yet, grab a commercial product,  

00:30:49 Glenn:        One word or a couple, vinyl powder free gloves, wear them y’all.  

00:30:56 Narelle:        Yeah, okay. So anyway, that's my 2 cents on just the difference in the dangers of raw food versus kibble. So I think maybe some people didn't realise just how prevalent the contamination in kibble is and the dangers of bacterial contamination such as salmonella from kibble. So I really hope that it’s enlightened people a little bit. It's really just touching the surface of the whole debate. But it's a good start. So I think we might leave it there. If anyone's got any questions they can jump onto my Facebook page, Natural Health People and Pets, you can go to my website, naturalhealthandnutrition.com au. And while you're on my website, jump onto the shop tab because I've got some amazing new products available for our dogs. We've got the liquid herbal range which have been hugely popular since I've released those. Hugely popular.  

00:31:44 Glenn:        I know, you're sitting in there with your beaker and your, all your little utensils mixing things up like a little lab technician.   

00:31:49 Narelle:        Yeah, love it. And we've got the new Vet Activ8 range, so currently the only place you can get those in Australia is from my website. They've got the Joint Health and the Joint Care Medi Strength, which are both based around the active constituents in turmeric. And if you wanna know more about those products, you need to go to my other podcast,  

00:32:08 Glenn:        The one that we did last episode.  

00:32:10 Narelle:        Last episode on the differences between turmeric and curcumin, yes. Okay, so thanks everyone and we'll catch you next time.  

00:32:16 Glenn:        Sounds good. Bye. Bye. 

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