Episode 12: Nutrition & behaviour with Lauren Turner

00:00:33 Glenn:       Welcome back to Natural Health for People and Pets I’m co-host of the show, Glenn Cooke and I'm joined by my host of the show, Narelle Cook.  

00:00:40 Narelle:       Hello  everyone.

00:00:40 Glenn:        And joining us from Navar in Florida all the way from the United States is Lauren Turner, welcome, Lauren.  

00:00:48 Lauren:       Hello, thank you guys so much for having me.  

00:00:51 Narelle:       It's a pleasure. I'm so excited to have you on the show, Lauren, we've been communicating back and forth about dogs for a little while now. Not as much as we'd probably both love to, but we've got a lot of information. We're both passionate about nutrition when it comes to dogs and health in general, I think the listeners are gonna be really excited to hear your story and the work that you're doing with dogs.  

00:01:14 Lauren:       Well, thank you so much. My fandom for you, Narelle, goes actually further back to the first episode you did with Glenn and Pat on The Canine Paradigm, and I can't remember what the topic was something to do with dogs and nutrition and I said, yes, here's somebody who can talk about something I'm passionate about. And then your focus on the science is huge to me. That's something that I can totally nerd out on. So I had this instant connection and so I listened to all your episodes there and then when you announced you were gonna do this podcast, I had an internal party because they were so excited to listen to what you had to say. And of course every episode has been so well done. So I so appreciate the work you guys do for that. And I think it really is information that people are hungry for, whether they know that or not, there's a huge gap in people's knowledge when it comes to just being able to sort through all the information that there is out there for humans and dogs. And so I think it's a super important conversation, so when you asked if I could come on and do this, I was thrilled to death. I was honoured, so I really appreciate it.  

00:02:34 Narelle:       No, that's great. We appreciate having you in. It's interesting that you say you heard my first podcast with Glenn and Pat on The Canine Paradigm because I think back to those episodes now, and I, don't cringe, but I'm like, oh, you know, even over two years, my knowledge and the science has progressed phenomenally and exponentially, I should probably say. And so I think, even if I could go back and have those podcasts recorded again, I'd probably do them quite differently because the information has evolved and my knowledge has evolved.  

00:03:04 Glenn:         Says every author and podcaster and radio and TV person ever. 

00:03:09 Narelle:       But like you said, that's the beauty. Now I have my own show so I can redo bits with new information as it comes to hand.

00:03:15 Lauren:       Exactly.  

00:03:17 Narelle:       Let's learn more about you and what you are doing. So where did it all begin for you?  

00:03:22 Lauren:       I feel I have such a patchwork background, and when I reflect on how I've gotten to where I am now, like the path that led me there, it's so funny because it's almost like these tendrils of life kind of came together at the exact right time to sort of push me to where I am now. So my adult career, I guess actually started in the Air Force. I can't tell you what was the spark that somehow made me decide to do that because I have no family in the military. So how I ended up in the Air Force and how I decided to go to the Air Force Academy, which is a large university in the United States, you then join the Air Force once you finish your college.  

00:04:21 Lauren:       I can't tell you how I ended up there, but I did. And it was a gruelling application process to do that, and it was a phenomenal experience. That is one of those cornerstones in life you look back on and you say, that is a huge reason I turned out to be the person I am today. So while I was there, I had the opportunity to do lots of really neat things and one of those things was I got to do, it’s a soaring program, so you learn how to fly an airplane, but it has no engine. It's a glider, so it has wings and a cockpit and the wings are really, really long if you've ever looked up what a glider looks like. And you are towed into the air by an actual airplane with an engine, you hook up to that airplane on this long cable and it literally pulls you to whatever altitude you need to go to.  

00:05:22 Lauren:       You release the cable and now your flight is silent. It's so beautiful. And I remember getting that first ride and I was hooked. I said, this is awesome. Like this is what I wanna do. And so I got the opportunity to do that and through that opportunity I was able to become an instructor and teach other students how to do exactly that. You know, we're all, students teaching students. Who came up with that idea, I don't know, but you know, it's a lot of responsibility to be up there with no engine and you're flying somebody else and letting them fly this aircraft. But you know, the reason I bring that up is because that's where I truly realised I had a passion for teaching. I loved igniting passion in somebody else about material. And just because of that environment, I had to learn how to do it in a concise and direct way.  

00:06:22 Lauren:       And that is one of those tendrils that I look back on and realise that had such a huge impact in how I teach people now as a dog trainer and how I communicate with people. That was something that really helped mould that. And because of that opportunity, I always had this excitement for teaching, tutoring and guiding people. That's something that really developed during those years, and I graduated from the Academy with a Bachelor's of Science Degree in Behavioral Science. I learned a lot about learning theory and the ins and outs of that, and that was my four year degree.

00:07:17 Lauren:       My capstone class was super fun where we each got assigned a rat, a typical white rat with the pink eyes and we taught this rat how to do all sorts of things. He did weight pull, he did long jump, he went through a rat maze. He did all of this really cool stuff and that was the capstone class, using everything you've learned, teaching this rat to do all of these really cool things. That's another tendril, just that solid base in learning theory and how things learn and how things develop and what's actually going on scientifically in your brain. And that's really what ignited my love for, as dull as some people may think this sounds, reading science and reading things that have been published and, what is the new research out there and what is the science saying and what are the facts of whatever it is I'm looking into.  

00:08:17 Lauren:       So, graduating from the Air Force Academy, I actually became a Federal Agent for the Air Force. I was basically in charge of looking into any felony level investigations that involved Air Force people or property. It was awesome. I met so many good people. I learned, again I sort of ended up in a coaching role where I was teaching people how to do this stuff, how to run their cases. I had a lot of opportunities to talk to people in high pressure situations. And so that helped develop the communication skills that I use today. I just always think of, I feel like somebody's painting me into something and I don't quite know what the finished product is, but I can see what colors they're using and that was something that they chose to do. So I did that for five years and I was done with that.  

00:09:16 Lauren:       Being in that position was a bureaucracy within a bureaucracy. We had basically law enforcement within the Air Force, and there were just inefficiencies that I couldn’t get over as a person. So I said thank you, but no thanks. I've done my job, I've paid my dues to the country and I'm super proud of that. That was the end of that chapter. Funnily enough, going from that background, I immediately jumped right into starting my dog training business, which is Ideal Dog, and I'd always loved dogs and had a problem dog myself. Straight out of college I rescued a pit bull from a high kill shelter, she was eight months old and it was a very typical story. She was lovable as can be, but she was absolute chaos.  

00:10:21 Lauren:       I tried all of the typical, click and treat training and you know, show her enough love and she's gonna be such a good pit bull ambassador, you know, she was crazy. She actually ended up having a screw loose and things didn't work out with her, but she was a huge push in my life that taught me that I loved doing this. I loved using my background in learning theory, and I loved working with this creature that doesn't know English, you know, and how can we mould this creature into a better version of themselves basically. So I got into pet dog training basically because of her and because of my strong background in learning theory, it was pretty easy for me to slide into that role and just help people with the very common things that most people have problems with. You know, the potty training and pulling on leash and the kennel stuff.  

00:11:20 Lauren:       And I'm still in that world, but my program has evolved into so much more than that. And it turned into, yes, we train your dog, but our goal is not to bandaid fix problems. My goal is whatever dog I come into contact with in partnership with their family, to create the absolute best version of that dog possible on all fronts. And we'll definitely talk about this, you know, I wanna hit on this because this is what helped create those programs, but that's my goal. And I let people know that upfront, if you have a singular problem and you want that fixed, I'm not the trainer for you because I work from the bottom up. I don't just attack problem behaviors. And because you find yourself just telling the dog to stop it too much, and that's not fun, you know, and I just look at a dog and I'm like, there's so many other things we need to work on, you know, it's not just jumping on grandma.  

00:12:33 Narelle:       I love that you've got that philosophy because that's how I practice too in clinic, whether it's with my human clients or my dog clients, people come in and they do want the easy band-aid approach. Again, whether it's for them or their dog, they just want that symptom, that pain, whatever it is to go away and just the quickest and easiest way possible. But unless you identify the underlying drivers, and unless you address the big picture of everything to do with that personal dog, it's just gonna come back. It's never gonna be fully resolved long term. So I love that your programs have evolved to incorporate that big picture for quality of life for the dog.  

00:13:10 Lauren:       Exactly. And it's actually because of a fight with my own health that I ended up there. I didn't have cancer, it wasn't anything that I actually had to fight through, but I had to wade through all of these issues that I was having after I had my son. And he's almost five years old now. So this was about a five year long battle that I'd been wading through, where basically after I had my son, it wasn't apparent at the time and I wasn't diagnosed with anything, but looking back, I'm pretty sure I had at least a mild form of postpartum depression. I also had a lot of changes in my life. That's when I separated from the Air Force and all that. But I just look back and I don't remember basically the first year of his life, it was something I just did and I turned everything else off and I just went through the motions.  

00:14:08 Lauren:       I can see that now. And you know, of course you see other people who are just glowing when they've had their kid, I just had a different story. So that's definitely my personal diagnosis looking back. Looking back, I was just a lesser version of my own self, and I'm sure you hear this so much Narelle, I can't tell you what was wrong specifically, but a hundred percent there was something wrong. I had brain fog to the point where I had my own science. On your phone, you can get these things like Lumosity, or little brain game apps that you can do. And when I was in the Air Force, doing well health wise, that's the time period I was doing well, pre kid, I had all of my scores, math scores, reading scores, language, all of these different things were stored in there.  

00:15:08 Lauren:       And I took a break,  and I didn't use the app for a few years. And then after I had my son, when I was struggling with brain fog and fatigue and all of this stuff, I pulled it out and I was like, brain, I'm going to make you learn how to work again. I was 33% on average, less complete than I was before, whatever scores I was achieving, these were like 50 or 33%, less. And I said, look, I have data that my brain isn't working properly. So yeah, I was just dealing, I mean really it was fatigue, it was brain fog, I was having skin issues. Granted I've always had a very, very, very mild form of eczema. I would eat stuff and my skin would break out, it was alarming. And of course I went to the traditional doctors that I go to and my labs were coming back completely within range on all fronts. And even to get those labs, I had to go through several doctors. Like I had to fight the system. It was insane. It's so frustrating if you can't tell, it was very frustrating to me.  So finally I said, okay, clearly I can't get help from these professionals, so I'm going to have to do the work myself. And here comes the cough.  

00:16:39 Lauren:       The cough is actually a completely normal symptom I've had almost my entire life. I've done so many lung tests, it's not my lungs, it's upper respiratory problems, inflammation basically that causes my lungs to want to cough and, and clear it out or whatever. So I decided I was gonna do the research myself. And you know, it came came back to changing the way that I eat. I didn't eat horribly beforehand. I ate a very typical, maybe slightly above average American diet. You know, we had pastas, but we also had, grilled meat and veggies. We went out to eat, but not too crazy. McDonald's really wasn't something that we did. So just very, very average. And what I did was, I completely eliminated probably the top three allergens.  

00:17:41 Lauren:       So dairy, eggs, and wheat, and gluten containing grains. Within 60 days, everything was clearing up. I didn't have skin issues, I was feeling better, felt more energy. I still don't think it was a complete answer, I still think there's things going on, but the impact that changing my diet had for me simultaneously started leaking into my dog programs because my symptoms were almost nearly identical to what 80% of my client dogs were presenting with. When I would get a new dog and you know, I would just ask general health information when I started out. It was just for liability, how is your dog, is he healthy enough for training, et cetera. And so many dogs had skin issues and the vet diagnosed them basically with environmental allergies, and they were somewhere on a scale of needing daily antihistamine medication.  

00:18:53 Lauren:       Then you go further up the scale to where they needed daily prescription medication to where they needed monthly injections to where some of these dogs are on chronic steroids. And I felt that if that dog's body wasn't as healthy as it could be, how is this poor dog's brain going to be engaged in the training aspect that I'm trying to accomplish? And it just became something I couldn't ignore anymore, where I couldn't address these mental behavioral issues if the body wasn't prepared to learn. And I just thought about it in terms of us, you know, if we're not feeling a hundred percent, are we gonna wanna go sit in calculus class? The answer is most certainly not, I'm not gonna be prepared to learn that. And that really was the initiative, my own wading through the health system and figuring out these somewhat just obscure symptoms that I was having that led me to start being able to help other people and their dogs with their diet, which in turn made my training programs so much more robust. And the reception from the clients, they loved it. The human clients, they absolutely loved it. And I presume the dogs love it too. 

00:20:13 Narelle:       There's a lot of research with humans and dogs into the mind, body connection. So you can't separate the two of them. People want to, and even your journey into where you are now with the dogs, I think a lot of people get into the natural health side of things because of their own experiences. You know, their frustration with mainstream medicine, just brushing them off and saying, there's nothing wrong with you, even though we know our bodies and we know when things aren't right. And it's funny because, I've been treating humans for years now, but my conversion into dog health was because I would be treating clients with say, skin issues and then they would see the results for themselves and they'd say, oh actually my dog's got a skin issue. What can you recommend for them? And it just started to happen more and more. Or they had gut issues like diarrhea, and they're like, oh, my dog's got gut issues, can you help them too? And suddenly I realised like there's this whole area of dog health that's not being addressed as adequately as most owners want. Because like doctors, vets will just pop them on some meds and say, there's nothing else we can do.  

00:21:16 Lauren:       I think that's sort of what it takes. I think dog owners, if they've had a health struggle, their struggles to get answers, I think one day they wake up and they realise that the answers they're receiving from their dogs are just as difficult. But beforehand they didn't think about it, you know? They're looking for answers for themselves and they're just getting the run around or an average answer that's not adequate for them. At least it wasn't adequate for me. And then they realise they're taking their dog to the vet and the same things are happening where the questions aren't being resolved adequately. And I think that's where people feel stuck because you look at any dog forum almost anywhere, and if you search in there for skin issues or allergies or whatever, I guarantee you, within the past two weeks somebody's asked that question.  

00:22:14 Lauren:       Because I think that is a huge issue that so many dogs are battling and people want the answers, but they don't know what to do about it. And then somebody will say, you know, it's probably the diet. Maybe they have some food sensitivities or whatever. And then they don't know what to do because they switch foods to these other foods, limited ingredient foods or allergy friendly foods, and those problems don't go away for a large majority of those dogs. And then they're left in this vicious cycle. I know people want these answers and I think that's why clients have been so receptive to my programs because I'm giving them the answers and the perspective that I think they've always wanted.  

 00:23:04 Narelle:       I don't know if you've seen the paper, it's part of the frustration that I think dog owners experience, if they do have a dog with allergies and food intolerances. When they try to do the right thing, they go on a prescription single protein diet, and I can't remember what year the paper was published, but it's not that long ago where they analysed about 45, 49 novel protein, hydrolysed dog food diets, specific for allergy conditions. And so many were, I don't have the stats off the top of my head, but so many were contaminated. They either didn't contain the protein that it stated on the label or it contained other proteins that weren't even listed on the label. The poor dog owner thinks they're doing the right thing.

00:23:45 Glenn:         And they're subject to crooked marketing.  

00:23:48 Narelle:       It's just the parallels between the worsening of diets for people and it's the same thing happening with our dogs. The highly processed foods that we are consuming, that our dog's consuming, it's no wonder that we are seeing all these skin conditions, gut conditions and just health conditions and problems and diseases generally.  

00:24:07 Glenn:       Just jumping in on that conversation with you two. There's another issue I see, Lauren, now that you are out in the public training dogs as well and you've got a client database behind you. You know, Narelle and I have seen this in the past. One of the issues that I think is frustrating for us, is some people do want change, but they want it instantly. That's the problem that they're having is they're chasing something to change overnight. Like almost like, give me a pill so I can change it overnight. And that's why when they go to the doctor and the doctor gives them a pill and it doesn't work for them, they think, well now it doesn't work. There's no answer to this or there's no end to it. I know there's a lot of listeners listening to this podcast who will say, well that's not me.  

00:24:48 Glenn:       You know, I am actually putting the footwork in. And some of the people actually do, they do put the footwork in. They do go and seek out somebody in the industry who is patient, who does sit with them. But they've gotta also understand that this has probably taken years to come on, maybe years. But it's gonna take time to come off as well. And the only thing that people can do, 'cause I'm speaking with authority here 'cause this happened to me as well, you know, I created so many gut issues by being a young guy and drinking so much alcohol and bad diet and stress and everything like that. And it was Narelle who got me onto somebody way back when. And I'd been to doctors and I'd been to people all over the place and just nothing was working. My condition was getting worse, I was getting depressed because of it. It was just really getting outta control. And Narelle said to me, I think you really need to do something about your gut health. You need to go and see somebody to fix this problem. 

00:25:43 Narelle:       That was before I was qualified.  

00:25:44 Glenn:         That's right.

00:25:45 Narelle:       Which is why  I sent him to someone else.  

00:25:46 Glenn:         Exactly, yeah. It was before Narelle changed careers, 'cause she was in Agricultural Science at the time. So yeah, she said, you know, we need to see somebody, we need to get this diagnosed and you need to deal with this properly. And once we did that and I was disciplined to stay on track with it, changes started to happen. My old self started to reemerge again. The person who I remember having energy and feeling things and being enthusiastic, that started to return. I could feel that person who felt like I was locked in a dungeon inside myself and I couldn't find my way back out again. That started to happen. Now I've seen that in dogs as well. I've seen people who have had behavioral issues with their dogs and they've thought to themselves, I just need to deal with the surface problem.  

00:26:31 Glenn:       Like, this dog is being bad, I need to go to see a trainer and we need to work out some sort of operant method to control the dog. Great, no worries. But the problem is it wasn't holistically going away. Both of you alluded to this before, and it's one thing that I'm very passionate about, and I think this is the transition between being a good practitioner to a great practitioner. And that is good practitioners, they deal with the satellites, great practitioners, they deal with the core. They go into the core of the problem to knock out all the satellite issues that are surfacing around the problems that are created not only with the human patient, but also with the dog patient as well. And then what they do is they say, okay, this is a long game. There are co-factors around that that everybody needs to consider, but it is a long game nonetheless. But doing this, you'll reap the rewards long-term if you stay on this program and then people come back and say, my God, it's changed, it's different. So I'm sure both of you have seen multiple cases of that before.  

00:27:36 Narelle:       To me it's just so fundamental in behavior for us and our dogs. It's all based around biochemical processes in the body. And the way those biochemical processes work is with nutrients. So our neurotransmitter production, our hormone production, those key drivers of behavior need certain essential nutrient co-factors. So if diet's not adequate or if you know the diet is lacking in any way immediately, you're gonna get a negative impact on aspects of behavior. And a big part of the diet with that too, is inflammation. I'd love to hear some case studies if you've got any, Lauren, but there's a lot of research out now and in the dog world as just how powerful inflammation is not only on health, but on cognition and behavior and learning. And there were some really fascinating papers from 2019 in human studies that showed inflammation reduced dopamine and reduced motivation for work because it actually made the effort seem more and the reward seem less.  

00:28:38 Narelle:       And that was just purely a result of inflammation in the brain. And then a similar study looking at sub chronic levels of inflammation, so on a blood test would look completely normal, but it showed that people with low levels of inflammation had an inability to delay gratification, so there’s increased impulsivity. And I just think that's fascinating if you consider that with our dogs, if there's any inflammation due to diet, they're not going to be as motivated to work and they're not going to be able to control their impulses as readily. So that's huge with problem dogs.  

00:29:13 Lauren:       The impulse control is probably 90% of the problem behaviors that pet dog owners deal with.The jumping on people at the door, barking at people on leash, barking out the window, that's impulse control problems at its core, so that's super fascinating. I'm like lighting up. I'm gonna need to get those studies from you just so I can read them myself. Have you guys seen it's been floating around social media and the internet, you know, the past few weeks, it‘s the image of a cell taken by an electron microscope.  

00:29:53 Narelle:       I did, I saw that I was gonna post it.  

00:29:55 Lauren:       It’s like a rainbow. It's absolutely beautiful. If you don't believe in a higher being, to me it's beautiful, it's gorgeous, it's a piece of art. It truly just looks like a little city. It's so complex and just gorgeous. 

00:30:38 Narelle:       That's a good point and it's an amazing image. One of us will have to find it and post it on the Facebook page. But I always like to tell my clients we only feel as good as our cells are healthy. And when we eat, you know, that nutrition is directly impacting ourselves. So we're either eating to feed health or we are feeding disease. There's no other way about it. 

00:30:55 Glenn:         What a terrifying thought.  

00:31:00 Lauren:       It puts a gravity to what you're putting in your mouth, once you commit to being healthier, even if you go back and forth, we're only human. I'm not saying be perfect or eat McDonald's. It's just a commitment to be conscious of what's going in your body and your dog's body. Once you make that commitment, whether you want to or not, you cannot help but feel guilt if it's not fitting within that paradigm anymore. You know, I cannot eat a meal without a lot of vegetables, without consciously at some point saying, oh gosh, I'm not eating enough vegetables today. You know, and if weeks go by, I am like, yep, this is getting bad. And you feel a certain amount of responsibility to treat your body the way that you've committed to.  

00:31:49 Lauren:       And it's the same thing for the dogs. So Glenn, you mentioned the pill poppers. That's what went into my mind to address the people who want the answer right away and they aren't necessarily willing to put in the work. And those people are certainly out there. And for me, I avoid those people completely. Those clients, if they're not willing to put in the work to change their dog and to make this dog the best version they can be, those aren't the clients that I'll work with. And I do that through various different ways. I basically make people jump through a certain number of hoops before I even talk to them on the phone. And in those hoops there's notifications, and notifications, and notifications that say basically I'm a holistic trainer and you are required to change your dog's diet to be part of these programs that I offer.  

00:32:50 Lauren:       But after people jump through those hoops, the clients that I talk to and the clients that I end up working with, I have never had anybody put up even an ounce of fight against changing diet. I've had people be completely on board as if it's not a big deal to them. So let's go ahead and switch. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I've had people who have had issues over the years with their dog's health and they ask wonderful questions. They're more than interested in the information, but that's about what I get. Nobody puts up a fight at that point. And so it really just opens the opportunity when people have an open mind to educate them on why this matters.  

00:33:50 Lauren:       Particularly because they're looking for training help with their dog. So why does nutrition matter? Why do you do it this way? And what I talk to them about mostly, and I provide them with the image, is I talk to them about Maslow's hierarchy. Abraham Maslow was an American psychologist and he came up with this pyramid that divided up different human needs into different hierarchies, or different levels within that pyramid. And his theory was essentially that human needs at the bottom of the pyramid had to be met before they could achieve the ones at higher levels. There were essentially three different levels, the very bottom were biological needs, basically food, water, shelter, warmth, with the next level being the need for safety.  

00:35:00 Lauren:       And those were the very bottom two biological needs. The next layer on top of that are psychological needs. So the need to build relationships, good relationships with people was one level. And the next one on top of that is essentially the need to accomplish something, to work hard at something and to feel good about what you're doing. And then the very, very top of the pyramid is self-actualisation goals. You can consider that as basically your ultimate lifelong goal, like when you die and you reflect on your life, have you accomplished that thing at the very top? And so he essentially created an image to describe something that's hopefully relatively common sense, where if you're hungry, you're not going to want to work hard on your relationships with family. You are hungry, you are hangry, that's not your priority right now and of course he's talking about the big picture.  

00:36:03 Lauren:       So you think about children who are maybe uncertain about where they're getting their next meal from. Of course they're not gonna be doing super well with their grades in school because this very foundational need, this biological need is not being met. So they don't care about this next level up need, which is to perform well at school, which at that point is their job. And so it makes sense. And so what I did basically was I translated that idea into dog training and it's my dog hierarchy. And at the very bottom I have it divided into two. And one of those corners is the dog's health and nutrition, health and diet. What are they eating and what's the state of their body? And the other side is basically human leadership and structure within the home but I can't remember the title right off the top of my head.  

00:37:04 Lauren:       So those are the two bottoms, the health, nutrition and the home structure. On top of that, I have mental stability. So the ability to just be calm and stable and not be freaking out for one whatever reason. Then on top of that is obedience training. We have two things at the foundation, then mental stability, then we have dog training. And Bart Bellin summarises this idea in a simpler way than I just described. He basically says, you cannot cook spaghetti until the water is boiling. Can't do it. You've gotta have boiling water to cook spaghetti. You know  

00:37:46 Glenn:         My favorite saying,  

00:37:47 Lauren:       Yeah right, exactly. So that's sort of the idea I'm trying to get across to the clients, and Glenn, your analogy was the satellites and the core, the gravity of the planet. And that's what I'm trying to teach them is, you're concerned about these behaviors way up here, and I'm not a trainer who's going to start training your dog, sit down, stay, come, walk nicely on leash, kennel up. We're not doing that on lesson one and we're not really doing it on lesson two either. What we're working on is, how to feed your dog better. The ins and outs, the whys. I always give them recommendations across the board. So kibble recommendations, lightly cooked food, freezer food, commercial raw food. I give 'em all of my personal recommendations on a sheet that they can go through.  

00:38:43 Lauren:       And they're required to switch to one of those diets before we continue our training. And if it's a dog who's coming to me for a board and train, so the dog is staying with me for a certain period of time, they have to switch about 30 days before we start training. So they have time to transition the food. We have time to address any concerns that may have come up beforehand, you know, if the dog's not agreeing with the food, et cetera. And then that way the dog has been stabilised for two to three weeks on that food before they come to me. When I initiated that change, when I officially put it in my contract that this was a requirement to do the programs, all of a sudden the quality of the dogs I was getting changed drastically. And I don't think the local population of dogs all of a sudden improved.  

00:39:33 Lauren:       It was just the dogs that I was working with directly, they were feeling better and their health was better. And because I started doing that and because we worked on nutrition before training started, and then because I focused on how to live with your dog nicely.. So my general rule is if you're having behavioral problems with your dogs, there's gonna be rules that have to be in place. The dog is basically in doggy bootcamp, dog's gotta sleep in the kennel. So that means you boot 'em out of the human beds. Dogs can't be on the couch, dogs need to be on leash in the house. They've gotta be exercised X amount of times per day or, or for X amount of minutes appropriate for that dog. And I teach 'em how to exercise properly. Those are my requirements. And I say there's nothing, some people would argue with me on this, but there's nothing inherently wrong with your dog sleeping with you in the bed or being on the couch or being free in the house.  

00:40:34 Lauren:       But if your dog has a problem, in my mind they can't do that. So that's just how I look at things. So that's the foundation. That's lesson one. Lesson two is we work on that stuff, Glenn, this comes to your satellite analogy. All of a sudden the dog doesn't have these behavior issues anymore. Like all of those things that people listed starts melting away. They're now not destroying things in the house. Their potty schedule has become more consistent, so they're not having those accidents in the house anymore. Their energy levels have stabiised throughout the day, so they're not getting those spikes in glucose because of all the carbohydrates in their diets. And then they're not crashing. So they're not having maniac tornado dog who then turns into potato dog and they just want it to be the potato dog. Why is it turning into maniac dog?  

00:41:30 Lauren:       We're not having that anymore. Their energy level is completely stabiised, so all of a sudden they're looking at a better dog. That makes my job as a trainer to fix those problems so much easier. And then I approach training a little bit differently in that everybody's going to learn, sit down, stay, come, walk nicely on leash, off leash recall, stuff like that. And just developing a solid communication with the dog fixes problems. So some people will ask me, you know, friends or family members, they'll say, Lauren, my dog is jumping up on people when they come into the house. How would you recommend I fix it? And I'm happy to have that conversation with people, especially if they're friends and family. But I say, do you have 90 minutes and are you gonna change the dog's diet and if the answer is no, I say, well, I don't know how to help you.  

00:42:27 Lauren:       I truly don't know how to take your dog as it is right now and teach that dog to not jump on visitors at the front door. It's gonna be a punishment based system. We're gonna have to correct the dog 'cause in my eyes, if you're going to correct a dog to get them to stop doing something, it needs to be stopped in three repetitions or less. Or we're kind of abusing the dog. And people aren't ready for that. They don't have 90 minutes. They like the kibble that they're feeding their dog and they say, well, you know, and we changed the topic, 'cause it's hard to help people who aren't prepared.  

00:43:01 Glenn:       But that's the issue, is that people want convenience. And we are living in a world that rewards convenience. I mean everything that we want. If we want something now, we don't have to get dressed, go down to a store and buy it. We can just go online, shop it, and we can say, I want this within two days and it'll be on your door. Whereas you might have had to wait a week or maybe a couple of weeks to get it 'cause it wasn't in stock. But you know, now that's not how the world works. And people want that with health as well because they think, well if I can have that with goods and services, why can't I have that with my health? Listening to you talking before, I've kind of looked at people with their dogs.  

00:43:38 Glenn:       Like the dog is representative of the mythology of Cerberus. It's like one dog with three heads all in conflict with each other. And that's a situation where I've looked at dogs that have come to me before and I've thought this dog is just not in a good frame of mind at the moment. There's a lot of things flowing around in its head, and that's why I get the image of Cerberus. And that's what people like Narelle, and myself, and you and multiple others who are in this industry, are dealing with. That concept of a dog that's in conflict with itself because it's battling health issues, it's battling environmental issues, it's battling training issues. You know, there's a lot of conflict flowing around there. So yeah, it's a difficult position for us all. But again, it gets back to the point where we really need to strip back to basics.  

00:44:27 Narelle:       It cracks me up, Lauren, to hear you say that story about when you ask them, you know, do you have 90 minutes? Are you prepared to change their diet? And they're like, well no, because I get asked for health advice all the time for people and dogs, and I'm happy to share my knowledge and tell people what they need to do, but then when they turn around and argue with me or they say, no, I'm not prepared to do that. What else? Or, you know, there's just this barrier that goes up. I'm like, you asked me for my opinion, this is what I'm telling you. If you don't wanna do that, that's fine by me. I'm not gonna force you to do anything. But, you know, don't stand there and argue with me about it. I mean, there's time for valid discussion about things, but you get my point. You know I'm not gonna fight you if you are not prepared to make those changes,  

00:45:15 Lauren:       Exactly.  

00:45:16 Narelle:       That's not my job to motivate you.

00:45:19 Lauren:       I'm not gonna convince you. The facts are the facts. This is what I believe. You ask me, I'm gonna tell you what it is, and if you wanna argue with that, that's fine. That's your own right. But, I'm not gonna waste any more energy passing that information to you.  

00:45:33 Narelle:       Exactly. 

00:45:35 Glenn:         It was an interesting thing, I talked about it on The Canine Paradigm a while ago, and I remember Narelle was talking about a subject some time ago, like quite some time ago, and I think she was doing it online before the podcasting went down. And somebody within the group was not directly disputing it, but calling it, you know, like what Narelle was suggesting. They were suggesting it was woo woo and it wouldn't work. Fundamentally, the same person, which was funny to me, went through a change of life where they changed diet and you know, went off mainstream diets and went into veganism and everything like that. And all of a sudden they feel amazing. Their skin is glowing, their hair is growing, their nails are growing. They're talking about like, I'm living my best life all of a sudden. And I'm thinking, no shit, this is exactly what you are knocking Narelle about, but because you chose to decide to go down that path, all of a sudden this is the magic bullet that's fixing everything in your life. That's great, I'm glad that person did that, but it's just incredible the resistance that people have initially to doing it. It comes down to pride, ego, money, whatever it is. But people are so rigid and fixated on thinking, no, it won't work. It doesn't work, it can't work, it goes against science, you know? But it doesn't.

00:46:57 Narelle:       That's one of the reasons I'm not in people's faces. So if I see someone feeding their dog something that I just think is terrible, I'm not gonna approach them and say, you know, that's crap. You know, you're killing your dog. Or if I see, you know, a person doing the wrong thing by their health, I don't just go up to them uninvited and preach to them about what they should be doing. Because I've learned from years in clinic that until someone is ready to change, there's just no point really. People have to come to that realisation. You can say all you want, you can give them the best advice in the world, but unless they're ready to hear it.  

00:47:33 Glenn:         It's like the quote from The Talent Code with Daniel Coyle where he says, when the student is ready, the master coach will appear.

00:47:40 Lauren:       That's very true.. For my clients, I think a big reason I've been successful in the way I do things is number one, just because I weeded out the people who aren't ready for that, I let 'em know upfront this is a requirement. And so if they don't wanna do that, they can find another trainer. So I don't even have the opportunity, not that I wanted it to convince them this is, this is the thing to do. I get people who are ready to have an open mind and they already know this is sort of the trajectory of my training programs, but also, shoot, that was gonna lead into something else. Oh, you know, one of the things I mention up front and the way I present this material is, this is almost the entirety of, of lesson one when I do private lessons with people, is I present it in a very fact-based way.  

00:48:36 Lauren:       I essentially say, and I use a lot of analogies to people too and the conclusion is basically everybody's situation in life is completely different. Your extra or spare time that you have to dedicate to feeding your dog is different. Somebody who's single versus somebody with five kids who works that time availability is very different. Everybody's budget is obviously very different. And those two variables are going to be what impact the quality of the food these people are able to use. That's the moving target in how high quality we can afford via our money and our time. And that's what I present to people. And I say that upfront is, look, everybody's answer is going to be different. And whatever answer you end up needing, whether it's to stay on a dry food, a kibble, whether it is a lightly cooked food, whether it's a completely commercial raw food, whether you want to make this balanced diet yourself, whatever the answer is, I'll help guide you in the best way to do that.  

00:49:50 Lauren:       But you have to come up with that direction yourself. I present them with the information and it's essentially, dogs need fresh food, they're carnivores, they need a meat based diet. The fresher the better. That's like in summary, in five seconds what I present to people, and then I leave them with my recommendations. And I say, let me know what you decide based on the information I've given you and based on your lifestyle. There's no right answer because everybody's situation is completely different and I think when I present it that way, it's super fair and it leaves people not afraid to be judged if they do need to stay on a dry kibble, you know? And then what I help people with is, okay, we've got this dry kibble, you've selected one from my list, which I've already sorted through, and now how can we supercharge it?  

00:50:44 Lauren:       That's basically my requirement. If you stay on a kibble, how can you add, usually I require digestive enzymes, some cold pressed amino acids and fresh food that you add in. Usually something that's got good probiotics. So you know, some yogurts or kefir or something like that. Some spare raw meat, fat trimmings if you've got that. And I coach them through how much is appropriate, et cetera. And I want people to just be empowered with information. And this is what I leave them with, is once you choose your food and we switch over to that, if somebody asks you, why are you feeding that food? I want them to be empowered and say, well, let me tell you why I chose this food because this is what fits in our budget because this is as fresh as we could afford.  

00:51:39 Lauren:       Because I know my dog is a carnivore and this specific food has a lot of meat content versus plant-based protein, whatever it is. If they can talk for 60 seconds on the reason why they chose that food, I feel like my job is done. Because if you ask the average person now, why are you feeding your dog this food? They'll say, my vet recommended it, and that's it. They'll say, my breeder recommended it and that's it. Or, I've always fed this food and my other dogs do pretty well on it. That's it. And yet the dogs will be presenting with behavior problems, skin issues, allergies, gassiness and bloating, and all of this stuff that they don't realise is an indication that that food is actually not the right answer. So that's my goal, is if they can talk about why they chose that food, and it sounds like they put effort into that decision, that means I did my job because they've got the facts and they were able to mull it over in their head and come to a really good conclusion on their own.  

00:52:47 Narelle:       I really love that, that you educate them to understand what they're feeding and why they're feeding it. Because I feel so bad for people on the online forums and the dog forums that really do get put down and persecuted if they mention that they feed kibble, it isn't black and white. And so a big part of what I do with my clients is exactly everything you've said, but to educate them about how to understand the ingredients in kibble and you know, there's a spectrum, there's a really broad spectrum of crap right through to higher quality kibbles and just helping people to understand what to look for. Go as high up that spectrum to higher quality that they can afford and that fits into their lifestyle. I always just feel horrible for people who are too ashamed to say that this is what they feed, because of how people treat them.  

00:53:36 Glenn:       Well, considering they're battling against very expensive marketing and also the say so of industry professionals who are guiding them onto that food as well. And they trust these people. These are trusted professionals who are suggesting and pushing them into it, saying, you need to feed your dog this.  

00:53:54 Narelle:       And you know, I think the group here, each of us understands that fresh is best and the more fresh food species appropriate that you can get in your dog site, the better. But it isn't all or nothing and as long as people can do the best that they can within their situation, even that's gonna be a huge step up for the health and behavior of their dog. And there was that classic study that most people know with Scottish terriers and bladder cancer. So they were on kibble and all they did in the study was they assessed those dogs that had fresh vegetable matter added at least three times a week, and the reduction in cancer risk was phenomenal. They were dogs on kibble with just some extras added in. I like to tell my clients, if you're on kibble, don't feel bad, just do the best you can and know that there are huge health benefits from adding in whole foods to the kibble that you're feeding. And whether that is eggs, yogurts, sardines and vegetables and things like that.  

00:54:55 Lauren:       And I think the buy-in from people, when you present it like that, like it's fine. Here's how you can make it better. All of a sudden now they're invested. They're like, this is great. I've always wanted to do better by my dog, but I didn't know what to do. And of course I have money to drop an egg in there once a week and some steamed broccoli or whatever it is. They can do that. And, and I tell people, if you can add a tablespoon of something better, it is better just because you can't do anything else. You're still making it better. And I always bring up that study with the little terriers because I think that's powerful information. And yes, it was very limited and it was very specific, very breed specific. But I think that fact just sort of gives people that last nudge that they need.  

00:55:43 Lauren:       You know, I had a trainer I was talking to about how I've included nutrition in my programs, and she said essentially she's so frustrated with how it seems like veterinarians don't prioritise learning about nutrition, and of course I agree with that. And she said, well, why is that? What's your opinion on why they aren't prioritising this or learning about it? And I truly think, I definitely get frustrated at the system very frequently, but when I take time to step back and think about it, it's definitely not malicious. I don't think any vet is intentionally trying to harm pets or not help them. I think these are absolutely passionate people who have spent life savings to get this certification to be a vet, to end up in the position they're in. And I think they're just inundated with the things that they have to know.  

00:56:50 Lauren:       They have to know so much information and I think that's just a huge burden of responsibility, nevermind the fact that they're overburdened with the amount of animals they're seeing on a day-to-day basis. In my opinion, I think part of their responsibility as a professional is to do their best to stay up to date on information. But I think if you look at things from their perspective, they are taught something in school and these are all very, very wickedly smart people, so they're gonna remember all of what they've been taught and that's what they latch onto. But that's their core of their information. And for them to be presented with the idea that there's this whole other world of information that's out there that they probably need to learn, I could see that just being absolutely overwhelming on top of everything they've already known. So I think it's just a burden of information type thing.  

00:57:51 Lauren:       And the way we combat that, in my opinion, is as trainers and as pet professionals, we have to educate our clients so that when they go to the vet, they're empowered to ask good questions. And if we get enough people going into the vets asking good questions, you would hope that that would plant the seed in those vet's minds or pet professionals in general to say, well gosh, I keep getting asked these good questions I don't necessarily have an answer to, or I feel is incongruent with what I already know. So that's something that pushes them to start investigating further. I think there's definitely a huge divide in the dog training world too with training techniques. There's a divide on methodology, and when it comes to dog nutrition, there's definitely a divide and it becomes like the general population versus the vets.  

00:58:53 Lauren:       And the vets are like these baddies who are out to just put our dogs on lifelong steroids. And is that out there? I don't know. I prefer to think of these as very well-intentioned, very well-educated people who are victims of a system that’s not giving them the information they need to be better. And in their defense you can dig for good science, but you have these huge companies saying, we have more science to show you X, Y, and Z, when in reality there just hasn't been enough funding for really good science on fresh food versus kibble. It's just not there. And for anybody who's interested, the University of Helsinki is the front runner for research on fresh food versus raw food and the benefits directly that that can give. And you can find supplementary studies out there on just limited types of information like the Scottish Terriers. You know that's out there and you can use current studies to draw other conclusions about what may or may not be better. But I think that University is the front runner on looking into fresh food versus ultra processed food, it's usually how they do those things. 

01:00:19 Narelle:       I recommend people definitely jump on their website 'cause they do publish a lot of their abstracts on the site that people can scroll through and have a read of and just get some basic ideas of what's happening and what's working with dogs. 

01:00:34 Lauren:       I would love to talk about a personal story of one of our foster dogs that we currently have and the success we've had with him. He's just this all American dog that really has become a representation of the good work that a good diet can do. Two years ago I got together with a friend, and I basically had this desire to foster dogs. I said, the number one reason dogs end up back in a shelter or a rescue situation is because of their behavior. And I wanted to help out but I didn't wanna do it the way everybody else was doing. This is totally my personality, it's all or nothing when it comes to me, we're gonna do it right or we're not gonna touch it.  

01:01:35 Lauren:       So I said, I wanna foster. Will you help me develop a non-profit where we can rescue dogs one at a time? I didn't wanna overwhelm myself or anybody else, as this is like a side gig. I said I wanted to rescue a dog, I wanted to give it some very basic training. I wanted to, of course you know, give it the veterinary care it needed and I want to feed these dogs correctly. So our motto, or our tagline for the rescue is, finding forever homes through nutrition training, and careful matchmaking. Those are the three fronts we look at. So this last foster that we got his name is now Watson, he is a German Shepherd Lab mix on his dad's side and a hundred percent Catahoula on his mom's side. He is just a brown dog.  

01:02:34 Lauren:       And the reason we got him, we got him directly from his previous family, is because they didn't have the time and the money to invest in him the way they needed to to solve the health issues that he was having. He had been having health issues since he was five months old and when we got him, he was three years old. For that long in his life he’d had chronic health issues and he kept being taken to the vet. He started out at five months old going to the vet for some anal gland issues that needed to be expressed, so not a big deal. You know, they'd get his nails trimmed at the same time, it was a quick visit. Then he started having bacterial infections on his stomach.  

01:03:34 Lauren:       It looked just like a bunch of spots, you know, like a bacterial staph infection. Then after that he went in quite a few times for ear infections and was constantly chewing on himself. His feet were always mentioned in his vet records, the fur around his mouth and his eyes were always gone. He didn't have fur there, and he's just a short-haired, sleek Lab type fur dog. So he was always chewing on himself and as I read through his medical record, he essentially was on antibiotics, very cyclically. He would get on an antibiotic, he would finish 14 days, if that and everything would be good. Then a month and a half later he would go back in for another visit, and that was his life. He got loaded up in the car, went to the vet, got scraped for something or another, got his ear pulled and they looked at it under a microscope and he was prescribed some medication or another. Finally you can see through the medical records the owner was like, hey, we need something to fix this 'cause I'm tired of it coming back. And he got prescribed Apoquel, I'm totally butchering that, but it's basically a daily pill that's supposed to help with those issues. You know what I'm talking about Narelle?  

01:05:00 Narelle:       I do, yeah.  

01:05:06 Lauren:       So he got prescribed that and then a few months later they come back in and this dog is presenting with the exact same issues. He's itchy, he's chewing on himself, he's got bumps all over his body and the conversation must have concluded with, now he needs to get a Cytopoint injection monthly, which is an immune suppressor basically. So I think he got two of those and they were probably spaced out by 90 days or so. And then they went back and the next vet record concludes with prednisone, steroids, and so he was put on steroids for the indefinite future to solve his problems and then the vet record stops, so apparently those solved the issues. Then we got contacted by the owners.  

01:06:05 Lauren:       They wanted to surrender him. I think it was a combination of the health issues and the expense that he was racking up and also just the period of life they were in and they wanted to give him a better future, was the way it was put. I was so excited to get this dog because this is your classic dog that you read on forums that's having so many issues. And of course our other thing that we're looking at with our fosters, is we're helping them be a better dog basically. And so in my mind I know for certain this dog is having these behavior concerns, which are super mild. He was just a very regular dog. But I bet his behavior is being impacted by his inability to be healthy. He's itching all the time.  

01:06:55 Lauren:       So we got him, and his vet records were nearly an inch thick at three years old. You know, there's five different vets that this poor family had been to. You know, he's gotten his vaccines. He went in for the typical nail trim, but it was always medication for the exact same symptoms. So in conjunction with my vet, who’s very traditional  and we're trying over the counter allergy medication.  Then they tried the daily allergy medication, prescription strength that didn't work. Then tried injections, but that didn't work. Now we're on steroids, that's where we were. He got turned over with a huge bottle of steroids.  

01:07:49 Lauren:       He was supposed to get five milligrams daily. So I went to the vet and I said, I'm going to fix this dog. Here's what I would like to do. And this poor vet, I've been working with him for about six years now, he's kind of just like, okay, that sounds reasonable, and he'll just do it. You know, he doesn't question what I come in with anymore. He just is willing to work with me, so I appreciate that. What we did was we put him on a 28 day protocol of combination antibiotic and antifungal. Basically my theory was essentially this dog has been dealing with an underlying bacterial infection that had never been fully addressed. Now he's got super bugs inside of him on top of the fact that his diet was relatively poor. You know, it was a low quality kibble that he had been eating.  

01:08:47 Lauren:       And to this family's credit, they tried so many bags of kibble and none of these issues were resolved. And at one point she did talk to me as a client and I gave her my spiel and I said, this is what I would recommend just upfront. This is what I would do if I had him in my hands. And she said, we can't do that. So that wasn't something that they were able to do financially, I think she said. We put him on a 28 day protocol of that, the antibiotics antifungals simultaneously, we were slowly weaning him off those steroids. So my theory was we're gonna kill everything. We're gonna get rid of the steroids and see what happens. And on top of that, we're feeding him super high quality food. So what we fed him was called Volhard Dog Nutrition is the brand.  

01:09:39 Lauren:       And the specific formula we were feeding is called Rescue. It was a gluten-free grain-free hypoallergenic, anti-inflammatory diet. This thing is phenomenal. Essentially it's a dehydrated base that has everything you need in it except for the protein and you source the protein yourself. So just from the supermarket or whatever. And so we started hitting him on pork because that's relatively well received by dogs who have allergy issues, in my experience it's pretty hypoallergenic. So we gave him that. And of course he loved it. Dogs freak out about this food and you add water. So it's warm water, meat and the base formula.  

01:10:24 Lauren:       Finally we finished that initial 28 day protocol, and I was waiting. His steroid dose is probably at half by that point, and now these medications are done and if we're gonna see something, it is gonna be now. And 30 days went by and I didn't see anything happen, and of course we're weaning off the steroids and his skin never blossomed again in a bad way. It never got gross, we never saw him itching, he was doing really, really well. The only thing that happened at one point was he got a little ear infection and I cleaned that up just with stuff I had here and it completely went away, it was an alcohol based solution. And I think that was just a last kick by the body to maybe get some stuff out. So what happened with him physically was first of all he lost weight, which is fantastic.  

01:11:24 Lauren:       And I think that's a huge factor that can help so many dogs that a lot of people don't consider, is the amount of stress it puts your body under. ‘You’ being the dog, when you're carrying extra weight, that's so much extra stress. And if your body is having problems, stress is something you wanna get rid of. So the dog was doing super, super well. He lost weight. His skin when we got him under the influence of these steroids was so rubbery. It was odd. It was really really funky feeling. His fur was really brittle. And that's probably due to the diet and the steroids. And what we noticed as we weaned him off the steroids is he started out being a very sort of a dumb dog. I hate to put it in such simple terms, but he was just kind of dull.  

01:12:18 Lauren:       He wasn't interactive, he was so lethargic, he was whiny, he was very whiny. But he wasn't like your typical anxious dog. He just had this whine that happened under his breath and it was constant. He almost never stopped doing that. He was just uneasy in his own skin. He didn't feel good. So as we weaned him off these steroids, he started getting livelier, he started having energy and I could see all of a sudden he was looking at himself from another planet and now he's actually connecting with his own body. He's becoming himself. He started playing with the other dogs. We would go do something outside training wise and he would just light up and his tail would start wiggling. He was bouncy, he just was happy. Like before he was unhappy.  

01:13:19 Lauren:       Now he's happy. That's as simple as I can put it. He just was becoming a better version of himself. His fur started gleaning. He shines when you take a picture of him, this basic brown dog now shines and he has like a red sheen to his fur. And we have not had a single issue with his allergies. His fur is really soft, it's not crispy anymore. And I think we went through a period where his thyroid was having trouble with the fact he was put on steroids and then taken off and you could see his anxiety levels or his windiness match that pattern, where the thyroid was underperforming and being suppressed because of those steroids. And that's when he was whining and anxious. And then as everything settled, he just is a normal, very laid back dog.  

01:14:13 Lauren:       So he is actually next week headed to his new family up in Massachusetts. We're transporting him through professional service from Florida to Massachusetts. And one of our requirements was that he stays on this food. That's huge for us because I think after we killed everything off and put him on this good food, I did a few other things to help with his gut lining specifically. Because we probably destroyed it via the initial protocol we did. So I gave him some supplements, I gave him some just good stuff that would help with that. So now he's beefed up and ready. He probably has a nice little lively gut microbiome going on now and he's doing great. So that was huge for us. And this family currently has a dog and they said we're gonna probably switch the other dog to this food as well once we figure out how to use it and whatnot.  

01:15:07 Lauren:       So he's doing awesome, and to me, he is just the epitome of a dog who just felt crummy and needed help needed the right protocol to help him correctly, to get him to be the dog he was meant to be. He's just a happy, good, lucky all American. Just like, let me hang out with you. If you wanna go on an adventure, we'll go on an adventure, but generally just give me someplace soft to hang out with you and we'll be fine. And his solution was a targeted approach combined with really, really dense nutrition and it fixed everything. He should not have to go to the vet for skin issues again. I hope. That's my hope.  

01:15:52 Narelle:       That's a really great story and thanks for sharing that with us, Lauren. And I think it's a good message for us with our dogs, but for us with our own health and moods as well, I think a lot of people don't realise how much better they could feel if they just fix their diet.  

01:16:06 Glenn:       Absolutely.  

01:16:06 Lauren:     Yeah Glenn, you mentioned feeling just not able to claw your way out of this funk you were in. 

01:16:15 Glenn:        I can absolutely relate to the story, because I dealt with it first hand where I thought who I was was gone for good. I couldn't find that person again. And again, I don't want it to sound ethereal or woo woo, but through proper diet, nutrition and rejecting some of the old things that I was doing, some really bad old habits, that person that I knew returned, You know, like I wasn't myself for probably about three years, three years I was a wraith of who I used to be, so yeah, I can understand that a dog could feel exactly that same way. I mean, we're all sentient, so if you're going through that internal struggle and you're feeling terrible all the time and you've got that brain fog and that sickly feeling all the time, then that's what you're concentrating on, that's where your energy is going and that's where your thoughts are going. So yeah, I understand it. 

01:17:05 Narelle:       And the thing is, it's by no means woo woo. There's so much good science out there on the impact of nutrition and particular nutrients on mood and behavior, you know, whether it's anxiety, depression, all through the spectrum of mood disorders. There's so much research out there, and like you said, there's no reason to think it's any different for our dogs. We're gonna have to wrap it up, Lauren, and we could talk for the rest of the day.  

01:17:27 Lauren:       I know.

01:17:28 Glenn:         You carry a good conversation Lauren.  

01:17:30 Narelle:       Yeah, loved hearing your story and what you're doing over in the States with your business. So if you wanna just let people know again how they can find you.  

01:17:40 Lauren:       Just so everybody knows, in the next few weeks we're moving from Florida to Virginia Beach, so my location is completely changing, but I will still have all of my contact information the same. So the best way to get in contact with me is via email at idealdogservices@gmail.com. My website is Ideal Dog Services.com. and of course I have my Facebook Page, which I'm really, really active on, that's sort of the core of my material and that's just Ideal Dog Services on Facebook. Got my green logo, I guess.  

01:18:18 Glenn:         You'd be able to hook up with Melanie Benware in Virginia.

01:18:21 Lauren:       Yes, I've already reached out to her and I've said, hey, we need to get together and she was all for that, so that would be lovely to meet her. You know, on a personal level, we've run by each other a few times, but that'll be really nice.  

01:18:35 Narelle:       Just to wrap up for people in Australia, I have my dog nutrition seminar coming up on the 20th of Feb in Canberra, tickets are still tickets available, so anyone who wants to head down to Canberra.  

01:18:46 Glenn:         Now that the borders are open.  

01:18:48 Narelle:       Now that we can.

01:18:49 Glenn:         And we’ve got covid under control.

01:18:51 Narelle:       That would be great. If people wanna get in contact with me, it's narelle@naturalhealthandnutrition.com.au or you can jump onto my website, naturalhealthandnutrition.com.au or onto the Facebook page, Natural Health for People and Pets. If you have any questions or anything you wanna talk about that came up in the podcast today, that's the place to go.  

01:19:12 Glenn:         Thanks everybody, thank you very much Lauren.  

01:19:14 Narelle:       Yeah, thank you Lauren.  

01:19:15 Lauren:       Thank you Narelle, it was a blast.