Episode 11: Weight loss in dogs

00:00:33 Glenn:       Welcome back to Natural Health for People and Pets. I'm your co-host, Glen Cooke, and joining me is the host of the show, Narelle Cooke for our first show back in 2021. Happy New Year.  

00:00:43 Narelle:        Happy New Year everyone. Very exciting. 2021, we made it. We all made it.  

00:10:10 Narelle:        So today I thought, New Year, a lot of people have in their minds about losing weight themselves, but I thought, what about our dogs? So I wanted to talk about weight loss in dogs. Today, depending on which source you refer to, up to 60% of our dogs are now overweight or obese, which is pretty much in line with humans.Two thirds of the population are now considered overweight or, or obese and studies have shown that about 80% of overweight or obese owners have overweight or obese dogs.  

00:10:39 Glenn:       Oh wow. That's a terrible statistic.  

00:10:41 Narelle:        It is. And what's really sad about that is that overweight and obesity in dogs is associated with so many different conditions and diseases that are completely preventable. Things like diabetes, pancreatitis, osteoarthritis, and any of those joint and ligament issues like cruciate ligament ruptures and slipped discs. It can cause problems with breathing, particularly with certain brachy breeds, increased surgery and anaesthetic risks, slow recovery from surgery because of immune suppression, and healing tolerance. I mean, there's just increased strain on all the internal organs. And sometimes cancer is associated with being overweight and obesity. All of that is preventable if we just don't over feed our dogs. And that's not to mention that shorter lifespan and a poorer quality of life overall for dogs that are overweight. They did a study in Labradors and they paired them up and for one of the two, they reduced the calorie intake by 25%.

00:11:37 Narelle:      And they tracked these dogs from pretty much birth to death. And they found that with restricting calories, the dogs were leaner and had much better blood metabolic markers. But they also showed that they lived nearly two years longer and their quality of life in terms of not having chronic disease was significantly less. So I always think, we all claim to love our dogs beyond everything, and yet two thirds of dogs are overweight or obese. I just find that really upsetting. But I think one of the issues is, and it's with people as well, most owners don't even realise that the dog's overweight. And the way it ties in with people is because the majority of the population is now overweight or obese that's the new normal. There's a shift in what's considered normal. So if you are a normal body weight, or if your dog is on the lean side, people will often criticise you and say, oh, you know, your dog's too skinny.  

00:12:30 Glenn:       Yeah, I was actually waiting for that marker to come up because there's been plenty of times where people that I'm involved with in the sporting dog world who have got lean, fit, athletic, well fed, well balanced dogs have been highly criticised, because people on the street have stopped them and said, even to the point, I'm gonna ring the RSPCA and call them for animal cruelty because you're under feeding a dog. And they've said, this is a working dog, it's perfectly balanced and it eats three meals a day and incorporated food in training and everything, please mind your business.  

 00:13:01 Narelle:        I mean that's abuse. For me, an overweight and obese dog, that's a form of abuse. Having a super fit, lean even slightly too lean, is a much better health position than being slightly overweight.  

00:13:13 Glenn:       Well every single veterinary behaviorist and surgeon that I've ever known, I've had the good fortune to sit down and talk about, they've always said to me better a little lean than a little heavy. You know, and that's the majority of people. But now the problem for us is that we are living in a very culturally sensitive world. You know, going back 30 years ago when I first got into training myself, I could say to people, your dog's fat or your dog's overweight. And people go, yeah, what do I need to do to fix it? Now you've got to very carefully approach the subject because it can be deemed not politically correct to tell somebody that the dog is overweight or God forbid fat. And then people will say, oh, what do you mean? You know? No he's not. Oh, you're just being mean to me.  

00:13:56 Glenn:        I mean, it's a hard topic. It's a hard thing to raise with people and maybe there are better ways to tell people that the dogs are overweight. But we own and manage boarding kennels. Well we don't own them, but we manage a series of boarding kennels and there's even been dogs that I've seen that have come in with three legs that are heavily overweight and they've got three legs, they're tripod dogs. I dunno what the reason for the leg removal is, but the dog is obese. Even all that extra strain on a three-legged dog is just tremendous.  

00:14:24 Narelle:        Well even I'm really conscious of it with Ladybug, our French bulldog with a spinal injury because you know, she's compromising her movement now. I mean she can walk, but you know, it's a lot of front body strength that she's using. So I don't want any extra weight on her that's gonna put an extra burden on her musculoskeletal system and pulling herself around the place. Which is hard because with her physiotherapy we used a lot of treats and now she's conditioned to offer those behaviors anyway, and I keep treating her so I do understand how owners get sucked in. And we'll talk about that too. 

00:14:59 Glenn:        Well, food can be confused for love sometimes.  

00:15:01 Narelle:        Oh absolutely, with us and our dogs.   

00:15:03 Glenn:        Yes absolutely. That's what I mean.  

00:15:05 Narelle:        Overfeeding is the no-brainer obvious one for weight gaining dogs. But I'll just touch on a couple of the others that may be relevant to your situation. You know, as dogs age, as they get older, they're more likely to become overweight and usually that's just because of inactivity. They might have osteoarthritis or other joint conditions that sort of slow them down. But what's important about that is a senior dog may need less calories overall, but the quality of the food is even more important for our seniors. So they need less processed carbs and more high quality protein to support their immune function and to prevent muscle atrophy. Because you know, for humans and dogs, muscle mass is the key to good health and good metabolism. So that's important for seniors. Genetics. Some dogs are just, some dog breeds I should say, are just more prone to be overweight or obese than others.  

00:15:55 Narelle:        So if you have one of those breeds, then you need to be even more vigilant with their diets. And most people know Labradors fall into that category and studies have shown that Labradors actually have a deletion in their gene sequence that is associated with increased body weight, fat and greater food motivation. And you know, when I was reading about that, I'm like, okay, well that's all well and good, but people need to remember because often people say, well I've got a Lab so automatically my dog's gonna be overweight. But you know, genetics loads the gun and the environment pulls the trigger. Diet is an environmental factor that we still have control of, it's not an excuse just because a person or a dog is genetically predisposed to a condition doesn't mean it's necessarily gonna eventuate.  

00:16:40 Narelle:        Neutering can increase body weight due to the influence of sex hormones on appetite and lean body mass. Medical conditions like hyperthyroidism is probably the most common one, so an underactive thyroid, but there are other conditions that can contribute to weight gain. Lack of exercise, we live in a sedentary society and everything we do these days is geared up to be able to do it with the least effort possible. And I think because we live that way, with most people that automatically flows onto our dogs as well. So I don't think dogs are getting out. Just taking your dog for a stroll around the block, for 20 minutes a day is generally not enough for most dogs. But having said that, you can't just rely on increasing exercise to achieve successful weight loss. And it's like I say to my human clients, you can't out exercise a bad diet. It's always food first.  

00:17:33 Glenn:       That's a good quote. I like that. Is that yours?   

00:17:35 Narelle:       I don't know if I've read it somewhere and it just stuck in my mind.like it. 

00:17:38 Glenn:        But I like it.  

00:17:39 Narelle:       A bit of Google before you assign it to me. Probably someone well known said it. So for our listeners who may not know if their dog's overweight, here are ways that you can easily figure that out. I use a body condition scoring system and there's charts that you can easily find and download online, which have a really good visual depiction of very lean to obese. Some are on a nine point scale, some are on a five point scale. I tend to use the nine point scale, which means a four or a five is the ideal body weight. But then a Sighthound at a score of three might be normal because, Sighthounds like Greyhounds are naturally very lean. But they're great 'cause you get really good visuals if you just wanna keep it super simple. If you've got a short head dog, easy, just look at your dog, can you see their ribs? Can you see a tuck? Like an abdominal tuck? We shouldn't have bellies hanging down behind the ribs, and if you look at your dog from above…  

00:18:33 Glenn:       Sorry, let me just turn back on that. When you say you should see the ribs, explain that. Should you see all the ribs or just some of the ribs?  

00:18:39 Narelle:       Well, you should definitely be able to feel the ribs if you run the palms of your hands along the ribs. But you should ideally be able to see the last couple of ribs in a dog. And so if you've a dog like Randy our Shepherd, he's got a really thick double coat so you can't see anything much with him, so it's important if you've got a dog like that to get hands on and to feel along the rib cage and to look down on your dog from above.  

00:19:02 Glenn:        They should be contoured.  

00:19:04 Narelle:        They should definitely be contoured and they should have a waist  

00:19:06 Glenn:        Comes from the chest tucks in and then goes back out at the rear again.  

00:19:10 Narelle:        Like I said, if you've got a short hair dog, it's really easy. If you've got a long hair dog, use your hands to feel. Or if you bathe your dog or if your dog goes swimming and it's longer coated, that's a really good opportunity to see the shape of your dog. Consider all those things. But let's say you do determine that your dog's overweight, what can you do about it? Firstly, I always recommend that people see their vet and get a full vet check and do some bloods just to really make sure that there's no underlying medical conditions contributing to the weight gain. And if you do have a larger breed dog, the scales of the vets are gonna be a lot easier to use than your scales at home. So we are lucky again, I mean our Frenchies, we can just pick them up and put them on our scales. But Randy, our Shepherd, we've got scales at the kennels, so again, we're fortunate in that regard. 

00:19:52 Glenn:        The way you do that, if people don't how to do that, what you do is you stand on the scale, get your weight, and then you record that and then you pick up your dog and then you stand on the scale again and then you record that weight and then you just subtract the difference between the two of them and you'll come up with the pet's weight.  

00:20:06 Narelle:        Perfect, thank you for doing that. So nearly all weight loss regimes will involve calorie restrictions. It's really important that you accurately weigh out your dog's food using scales and not relying on just cup servings or eyeballing the amounts. And this is even more important for small breed dogs where a small amount of food can make a big difference to their weight. And there are lots of equations out there that are used to determine how many calories a dog should be fed. But again, if you just wanted to start at the most simple approach, whatever you're feeding now, you could just feed 80% of that amount and just see what happens over a couple of months. But it's more important that you determine what your dog's ideal body weight is. And if you're not sure, your vet can probably give you a good idea based on the body condition score of your dog.  

00:20:53 Narelle:       If you've got a purebred dog, there's clearer guidelines as to sort of where they should sit within sort of a healthy weight range. If you know the ideal body weight, you can then go back to the food that you're feeding and make sure you're actually feeding according to their ideal body weight and not according to the weight they're at now. So for people who don't realise their dog's overweight, to say they've got a 40 kilo dog, they look at the dog food pack and they say, oh, a 40 kilo dog needs to be fed four cups of food, but their dog's overweight. Let's say the ideal body weight's 30 kilos, they need to go back to that label and figure out how much a 30 kilo dog needs to eat and then that should naturally drop the weight off the dog anyway.  

00:21:28 Narelle:        For those who like to get a bit more technical, you can calculate your dog's resting energy requirement and maybe I'll put the equation for that up on the Facebook page. That's not a bad idea. 'cause you need a scientific calculator.That's the approach I use with my client's dogs when I'm putting weight on or taking weight off them. There's a few approaches to that and ideally we want our dogs to lose about one to 2% of their body weight per week. So if you've got a 20 kilo dog that needs to lose weight, that's about 200 to 400 grams per week, which I think's quite a lot for a small dog.  I'd be happy if my human clients lost 400 grams a week. I don't mind if my dog clients lose 1% a week as long as it's consistent and the dog still has quality of life.  

00:22:09 Narelle:        I think that's important. I've touched on the label, so please don't get into the habit of rigidly adhering to the feeding guidelines on a pet food packet, because they're a starting point only, and you know, the studies show that even two dogs of the same body weight, their energy requirements, their calorie requirement can vary by plus or minus 50%. Which is like humans, we all know someone who can eat whatever they want and not gain weight and their friend who weighs the same amount just looks at food and gains weight. Well it's the same with dogs. The instructions on the labels are guidelines only, and I always calculate calorie requirements for our dogs, rather than the cup recommendations. 

00:23:01 Narelle:       And it was really interesting. We've got a puppy at the moment, Macho, he's a little Shepherd pup. And when we first got him he weighed about five kilos and he's on ZiwiPeak for training. But I've got him on a commercial raw BARF style patty for his other meals. And when I looked at the label for a five kilo puppy, their instructions were one patty a day. But then I looked at how many calories were in one patty and, and that was about 400 calories. But when I used the formal equations, a five kilo puppy should start at about 700 calories a day. So that's a huge difference in amount fed. So obviously I fed more than one patty a day, plus he had the ZiwiPeak on top of that. So that's just to really highlight how, how much a dog can vary and what they need compared to the label recommendations.  

00:23:49 Narelle:        The other thing owners need to be careful of is that when they're putting their dog on a weight loss program, is that the essential nutrients in pet foods are balanced according to the calorie content. So when we reduce the portion size to reduce the calories, we're also reducing the amount of the nutrients that our dog's getting. So there is a risk that some nutrients might be suboptimal during a weight loss program, particularly if dogs have a lot of weight to lose and it's gonna be over an extended period of time. And even though I am not a fan and I don't recommend kibble weight loss products, they're actually formulated to contain more protein, vitamins and minerals per calorie than say a standard adult maintenance diet for that very reason. Just so it avoids the risk of nutrient deficiencies during calorie restriction.  

00:24:35 Narelle:        And I just think that's a point that not many people would probably be aware of. So if you do feed an adult maintenance formula and your dog's overweight and you say, well I'm just gonna feed half of what I normally feed. He's getting 50% less nutrients. 

00:24:44 Glenn:   You're cutting down the nutrients as well. Wow, I would never have thought about that. 

00:24:49 Narelle: Yeah, not many people do. Again, that might be fine over a few months, but if you've got an obese dog and it needs severe restriction over a really long time, then that's where I get concerned that deficiencies may start to develop. I've just mentioned, I'm not a fan of kibble and studies have actually shown that relative to dogs fed fresh food, dogs fed dry food or dry food and canned food are more likely to be overweight or obese in the first place.  

00:25:19 Narelle:        And that just makes sense to me because, if we think about our own diets, it is really hard to become obese eating chicken breast and broccoli as opposed to highly processed packet carbohydrate foods. And it's the same sort of principle with our dogs and their diets. So with my clients, I always recommend a raw diet, but it's really important, and most people do this anyway, if they feed raw, to feed lean meat for weight loss. Because again, fat contains over double the amount of calories as carbs and protein. So if you had two meals and they had exactly the same number of calories, but one meal was made with a really fatty cut of meat, say 20% fat, and the other one was a lean meat, say 5% fat, then the fattier meal would contain a lot less nutrients, given the same amount of calories than the lean meat.  

00:26:07 Narelle:        Does that make sense to you? Because the fat has, let's say it has twice as many calories, so those calories are displacing nutrient calories. So meal one's 500 calories, meal two's 500 calories. But if meal one has a heap more fat in it, then there's not as much space for the nutrients. To keep things really simple, I don't tell my clients they suddenly have to start making their own, raw food blends from scratch. I'll usually say, buy a commercial product that's all natural. Have a weight loss formula that you just mix in with some kangaroo mince or something like that or they may wanna add in some other nutrient sources. There's the Wellbeing Essentials Complete 22 mix, and a lot of meal balancers that you can add to really make sure that your dog's getting bang for their buck nutritionally, when you're cutting down on their calories. 

00:26:51 Narelle:        And even if people didn't wanna use a natural meal balancer, they can still use a synthetic product for a short term. I don't mind if a dog, for three months or six months, is on a synthetic supplement. And there's a few options out there like Predamax and Feramo-D, which are just like vitamin and mineral blends for dogs to make their food complete and balanced.  That's the calorie and the nutrient side of things, which is really important to be aware of. Treats, I've never been a fan of treats and I've never understood the need to give dog treats unless it's part of a formal structured training program or the dog's working for them.  

00:27:27 Glenn:        Yeah, but that can be a normal part of their diet anyway that's the confusion around treats. The thing around treats is that they are convenient because they are usually something that is dry and sits in your pocket, or in your treat pouch or something like that. There've been people who have argued with me and said, oh, I feed raw and only raw so how am I gonna feed my dog on a daily basis? Well, as I've said to them, and I may have mentioned it on the show before, get yourself one of those tubes that you put cream in, you can put your meat in there and you can pop that out Into the dog's mouth as as you're training. So people said to me, oh, how's that gonna work? And I said, try it first, don't knock it and they've gone and done it. They packed their raw diet into the tube and they've rewarded the dog and given a little pump on the side and they've said it actually worked. I said, well there you go. You owe me a dollar.  

00:28:14 Narelle:        I'm not opposed to using  training treats, but I guess the average pet owner, all those really crappy processed gimmicky treats that are given on top of the diet, they're not taking the calorie content into account in the overall day of eating. If people do wanna give treats you can, but just keep them to less than 10% of the daily food intake and measure them out at the start of the day because it's so easy to lose track. Which is another challenge we're having with our puppy because I measure everything out in the morning, but then you tend to top things up through the day. And I don't know how much he's had, but it's good food so that's fine. And he's certainly not overweight.  

00:28:58 Glenn:        Well ZiwiPeak and then he's getting the raw diet that you are getting him the Big Dog, raw diet.  

00:29:03 Narelle:        Yeah. And he's a growing puppy and we don't have any weight issues. 

00:29:06 Glenn:       No, we don't have any weight issues because with all the extra training he's getting, he's burning calories as well.  

00:29:11 Narelle:        Yeah and other good choices for weight loss treats, you know, a low glycemic index like fruits and vegetables, so berries or cut up pieces of apple, or pear, or carrot and green beans. Even things like melanin peas, even though they're slightly higher in natural sugars, they're still a much better option than say kibble or dehydrated treats for dogs. And the other great thing about the vegetables is the higher fibre content, which can help keep dogs who are on a restricted diet feeling fuller for longer. Same principle with us. And just make sure with well-meaning family members, let them know that there's a program in place. For my client, I usually insist that one person be responsible for the dog's food each day. And if you're currently feeding your dog only once a day, if you put him or her on a weight loss program, you might wanna increase that to two or three meals a day because one, digestion requires energy, so it's diet induced thermogenesis.  

00:30:04 Narelle:        So by feeding your dog more times, you might actually get them to burn a few more calories across their day, but it also helps your dog, you know, stop feeling hungry. So if they're getting regular small meals rather than just one single meal that's a lot smaller than they used to, that can be a bit miserable for some dogs. So I usually recommend people just feed more times a day when they're doing a weight loss program. We've sort of touched on exercise, but I definitely encourage dogs to exercise, but if you've got an obese dog, they may not be able to go for more than a five minute walk. So as an owner you need to be more dedicated and you might need to take your dog out three or four times a day for five minute walks to get them moving.  

00:30:42 Narelle:        Or you might need to go somewhere where they can swim if they've got a lot of joint problems or if anything that restricts their ability to do high level exercise. And if you, as the owner, have a physical reason why you can't get out and exercise your dog, there are so many options. Doggy daycare which we do here. Training, get friends and family involved. If you need to pay someone to come and walk your dog or just interact with them. And the other thing with exercise is a lot of owners will feed their dog more, because they can consider them active because they do a dog sport. But most dog sports really only involve relatively brief periods of intense activity. So it's usually not enough to warrant extra food. Think about a typical human mindset, you go to the gym, do a one hour cardio, you get home, you're starving and your like, I'm justified in binging or eating this massive meal because I've just exercised so I need the extra calories.  

00:31:37 Narelle:        Well it's not the case and it's not the case with our dogs so keep that in mind. And I guess finally, the last aspect that I always consider when I've got a dog on a weight loss program, is supplements. There's not a huge amount of studies or clinical trials on supplements in dogs, but there are some for weight loss. And there's tons of human clinical trials to support the use for weight loss. And while diet is always key, diet really is 80% of weight loss for humans or dogs. You might just consider these as add-ons to make the journey a little bit easier for your dog. So the first one is omega 3 fatty acids, our fish oils. Now, like I said, lots of studies done in humans as to the weight loss benefits of omega 3 fatty acids.  

00:32:22 Narelle:        But there's also studies done in dogs that show similar benefits. Now the reason omega 3’s are so good is because being overweight or obese, it's a pro-inflammatory state for the body and it's known to promote metabolic disorders. So one of the key actions of the omega 3 fats is to reduce inflammation. So it counteracts it in that way, but it's also helpful in reducing insulin resistance and other risk factors associated with cardiovascular disease that our dogs experience when they're overweight or obese. I'm not gonna go into this now, but please buy a quality fish oil because if you buy a cheap bulk tub fish oil from some cheap chemist, chances are it's gonna be rancid and chances are it's gonna be full of heavy metals and persistent organic pollutants, which is gonna be completely counteractive because it's gonna create more inflammation in the body. So yeah, more health problems.

00:33:13 Glenn:        We should do a podcast on oils.  

00:33:16 Narelle:        Seriously, omega 3 fats and all the different sources is huge so yeah, I should probably get onto that. I reckon I use human grade one’s. All my supplements for my dogs are human grade because I trust the quality. But if you want a dog, one Antinol Rapid would be a really great place to start if you wanted to supplement your dog with an omega 3 fatty acid. Carnitine, so L-Carnitine, there are studies that show that it is highly effective for weight loss in dogs. It can have a positive impact on performance and muscle recovery. It can reduce lactic acid levels and reduce exercise induced muscle damage. So it's got a few different actions that can be beneficial to our dogs. But I guess the one we're looking at today is the weight loss aspect. Now L-Carnitine is a pretty safe supplement if you just wanna give it a go.  

00:33:59 Narelle:        The dosing will depend on the brand that you buy, but I know Sacha Packer from The Balanced Canine, Sydney, she's got a dog specific weight loss product that contains Carnitine. So you can always jump on her website if you wanna access that. Another one that there's some evidence in dogs for weight loss is white kidney bean extract. It's generally referred to as a starch blocker and the way it works is to block the digestive enzyme alpha amylase, which converts starch to our simple sugars. So when that enzyme isn't doing its job, starch doesn't get broken down into sugar and it can't be absorbed into the body. So particularly for dogs on a commercial kibble that's really high in carbohydrates, trying a white kidney bean extract would probably be really beneficial. And again, I think Sacha Packer of The Balance Canine, Sydney, has a dog friendly white kidney bean extract product that people can buy. 

00:34:53 Glenn:        Should be listed on their website, so you can put that up in your show notes on your Natural Health for People and Pets Facebook page.  

00:35:00 Narelle:      I will, I'll put a link to Sacha's page on my Facebook page so people can access that really easily.  

00:35:05 Glenn:        I'd like to actually get Sasha on the show to have a chat with her.  

00:35:07 Narelle:        We would, so I will pressure Sacha to do that, 2021 resolution. And the other thing, Sacha and Brittany Brittany Young have an amazing Facebook page called Fresh Food Feeding for Dogs, Kibble Feeders Welcome full of awesome resources, all around fresh food feeding without any of the technical maths required that tend to overwhelm and bog people down and stop them from moving forward into a fresh diet for their dogs. So join their Facebook group, just don't be a douche when you join the group, otherwise you'll get kicked out.  

00:35:40 Glenn:        Good, I'm all for that as well on all my forums.  

00:35:44 Narelle:        Read the rules, don't be douche and everyone's happy. And the final one, I know we have to wrap it up today, but a probiotic. Research demonstrates clear differences in the gut microbiota of obese and healthy weight individuals. And this applies to both humans and animals. because we've got certain species of bacteria that can influence the way our bodies regulate weight, our metabolisms,our insulin and inflammation. And there was actually a recent study that showed that dogs given a probiotic were more likely to be at an ideal body weight than those that didn't. So again, really safe to try with your dog. I recommend you always look for a multi-strain probiotic, so you want at least 10 strains of bacteria. The product I use for our dogs, the human dose, I think it's about 50 billion colony forming units and I just dose it down to the size of the dog.  

00:36:35 Narelle:        But the dose can vary quite considerably and still be effective, so even a little bit less or a lot more can be good. But again quality matters, like fish oil, probiotics. I'm really, really particular about where I get my probiotics from because there's no point getting a probiotic if all the bacteria are dead on arrival. So I like to use companies that have third party testing and stability trials. So a reputable company, if their label claims is say 50 billion colony forming units, they'll often put in, let's say off the top of my head, like a hundred billion at the time of manufacture… 

00:37:07 Glenn:       Because they allow for the die off.  

00:37:08 Narelle:       Yeah, so the use by date might be two years down the track so they need to put in enough overage to make sure that at that two year use by date that there's still at least 50 billion colony forming units viable and alive in that product. So that's really important to know.  

00:37:25 Glenn:        Well it is because these are things that you commonly wouldn't think of, and you would trust a manufacturer that they would get it right. And that you could go into a shop and just buy it and take it home and you know, swallow it down and it would do its job. But yeah, as you said, you know, when you have got independent people doing research and study and giving feedback on it, that does give further peace of mind.  

00:37:45 Narelle:        I tend to use practitioner only brands, that's not to say retail brands aren't good, but with the practitioner only brands they provide that information. All that third party testing for their fish oils and their probiotics and their quality control, they make that available to practitioners. So we do trust in the quality of the products and we can be confident that when we are giving them to a patient that they're gonna do what they claim that they can do. Okay. So we should probably wrap it up there. 

00:38:12 Glenn:       Quick question , if people need a design, a diet for their dog, can they come and see you?  

00:38:17 Narelle:        Absolutely, I will be seeing new dog clients in 2021. I've had a bit of a hold on new clients 'cause I was really busy in 2020 with clients. So if you've got a dog that's underweight or overweight or obese, definitely get in touch with me and I can… 

00:38:31 Glenn:        Or the owner.  

00:38:32 Narelle:        Yeah, so people or dogs. Now I'm with you. Sorry, I was a bit confused. Yeah, if you wanna lose weight or if your dog needs to lose weight, get in touch at naturalhealthandnutrition.com.au. You can email me at either hello or narelle@naturalhealthandnutrition.com.au. Or if you've got any questions related to this podcast, get onto the Facebook page, Natural Health for People and Pets and I can answer any questions there as well.  

00:40:21 Narelle:        Well thank you everyone. 2021, here we come.  

00:40:29 Glenn:        Yes, New Year.  

00:40:31 Narelle:       That's it. All right, thanks guys, bye.  

00:40:33 Glenn:       Bye.