Episode 13: The dangers of kibble

00:00:33 Glenn:        Welcome back to Natural Health for People and Pets. I'm the co-host of the show, Glenn Cooke, and I'm gonna introduce the host of the show Narelle Cooke.  

00:00:40 Narelle:       Hello everyone.  

00:00:41 Glenn:       What have we got today?  

00:00:42 Narelle:       We’ve got lots today,

00:01:56 Narelle:        I wanted to just talk about some of the negative aspects of commercial kibble for our dogs, but with a particular focus on the impact of the processing method itself. Mm-hmm. And some of what we touch on, even though we're focusing on dogs and kibble for the majority, it's just as relevant to us and our diets, even though we're not eating kibble. But I'll explain how it all ties back to all of us  

00:02:23 Glenn:       Now, just before you get into this, you've just put out a program online, a course that you've designed that covers a lot of reading the labels and what is going into kibble and so forth that people can access and get further information on.  

00:02:36 Narelle:       I have, because I get asked similar questions every day, every week around kibble. So it just made sense to me to put together a little package. It's only a couple of hours course, so it's not overwhelming for people if they think, oh, I don't have time to do another course. It's only $39, but I've pulled all the information from the internet, like all the factual information and just put it all together. It's really easy for people to understand just what to look for when they're buying a pet food product, a kibble product specifically for their dog. How to understand the words, because manufacturers do play on our emotions and they use a lot of marketing hype and a lot of pretty pictures. Just understanding the ingredients list and the guaranteed analysis and how I call them tricks of the trade. How to be aware of those tricks and how they may impact what's in the bag and how that might impact your dog long term.  

00:03:26 Glenn:        And where do they find that.  

00:03:28 Narelle:        So that's accessible from my website, naturalhealthandnutrition.com.au. You just go to the shop, put it in your cart, job done,  

00:03:34 Glenn:       Just like that. All right, let's get back to your subject matter on the dangers of kibble.  

00:03:39 Narelle:        First of all, I wanna say I'm not a hundred percent anti carbohydrate because, you know, they're both big controversial topics on social media and I guess the way I see it, because there's been studies done that show that when given a choice, dogs will naturally choose a diet that's about 7% carbohydrate, so it's a low carb diet, it's not a no carb diet that they will naturally pick for themselves. And you know, it's all about the type of carbohydrate, which is probably the bigger question and more relevant. Because you know what determines whether an added source of carbohydrate is a good or a bad thing in terms of its effect on the health of our dogs is not determined just by the amount and the type, but also the way it's processed. And I think that's my point today, and I think that gets overlooked a lot in discussions on social media.  

00:04:22 Narelle:        So it's all about bagging carbohydrates, bagging the ingredients, but less people are talking about the impact of the way that food is processed and how that impacts the dog. So it's just another level of information and understanding that I wanna highlight in today's podcast. And if we think about it, raw pet food manufacturers, they often include chopped up plant matter in their products, which are a source of carbohydrates and then they sell those products either raw or frozen, and you know, in my mind, raw or fresh food is always the goal. It's always the best option. But even freezing when it's done properly, that has the least impact on ingredients and it preserves the greatest amount of nutrients, which again is a good thing for our dogs.  

00:05:03 Glenn:       One thing I did want to just quickly jump in on there, is on social media for Instagram. I was watching Big Dog, they actually put a lot of what they do in their factory and how they produce. The transparency around it is actually great and I'm not saying that we are sponsored by Big Dog or anything like that at all because I don't want people to listen to this and think, oh, you're getting money, or you're getting feedback from Big Dog. We're not. It's just that I like companies that do things transparently, and I know that when Brittany Young was on the show, she went around and had a look through a lot of the plants that manufacture some of these foods and so forth and she had great things to say about the way that Big Dog were manufacturing. You can see that they're very clean, they're very hygienic and they show what they're actually doing. So anybody else who's doing that as well, I think that should be encouraged that they're showing people what they dd, so they take a lot of the stigma about their preparation and how they're producing to market  

00:05:56 Narelle:       And the quality of their produce is great. And I love that if you've got a question, they're so quick to respond. They're really proactive in answering any concerns or questions that consumers have around their product, which I love too. And they're very open about that.  

00:06:10 Glenn:       I guess for some transparency behind that, you are writing some articles for them as well?  

00:06:15 Narelle:        I've just started doing a little bit of technical writing for Big Dog because you know, I do believe in their product. So I'm happy to support products that I think are quality for our dogs. But coming back to the topic, I love fresh food. I've got no problem with frozen raw foods for our dogs, but unfortunately the majority of pet dogs consume a kibble based diet, and it's a kibble based diet that's gone through the extrusion process. So what that means is that the ingredients have been subject to very high temperatures, high pressures, and even mechanical shearing, all of which is highly destructive from a nutritional standpoint. But then there are some other major red flags when it comes to the negative effects of the extrusion process.  

00:06:53 Glenn:        Are you talking about the binders?  

00:06:55 Narelle:        No, the actual process of extrusion, mainly the temperature is what we're gonna focus on today and the downstream effect of that. But just to be balanced, I will say that there are some positives to extrusion if a dog is going to eat kibble and it's hard for me to even say that, but I have to be fair to both sides. It can improve the digestibility of plant sources of protein because, while our dogs can handle small amounts of say fresh fruit and veg in their diet and gain some really like awesome health benefits from those phytonutrients,, they're certainly not designed to digest raw grains and legumes, which is exactly the same situation with us. We don't eat raw rice, we need to cook it to be able to digest it.  

Narelle: 00:07:37 The extrusion process can reduce the nutritional compounds in grains and legumes, things like lectins, phytates and trypsin inhibitors. But even when I say that, if we just don't feed grains and legumes in the first place, that wouldn't be an issue. We wouldn't have to deal with anti nutritional factors. It can improve the safety of the product by reducing bacterial contamination. Again, that's only an issue because most kibble are made with extremely poor quality ingredients. Now that's a really broad statement. There are manufacturers that do have good integrity with the quality of the ingredients they use in their product, but for most pet parents that are buying cheap bags of kibble from the supermarket, chances are the quality of that produce going into the product is pretty poor. So if you're gonna feed kibble, that's some of the positive things that the extrusion process can bring to a kibble product. But when it comes to the negative aspects of the process, the main red flag for me is that it triggers what's called the Maillard reaction. Have you heard of that?  

00:08:34 Glenn: What’s it called? Say again. 

00:08:35 Narelle:       Maillard.  

00:08:36 Glenn:        Maillard.  

00:08:37 Narelle:        I can never say it probably clearly, but it's M A I L L A R D. 00:08:45 Glenn:       Mayard okay.  

00:08:46 Narelle:        So the Maillard reaction, it's lots of small chemical reactions that occur when amino acids from the protein component of a food reacts with the sugar component of a food or the carbohydrate component of a food when exposed to heat. And depending on the source that you read, generally it's above 140 degrees celsius, but I've seen as low as 120 degrees celsius. But manufacturers love this because what the Maillard reaction does is it creates all these amazing flavors and aromas and colours. So if you think of the outside of a seared steak, when we toast bread and we get a nice brown toast, french fries, fried onions, roasted potatoes, I mean, who doesn't like a nice golden crusted roast potato. All of that browning effect is a result of the Maillard reaction.  

00:09:35 Glenn:       It's kind of like when we smoke meat on the smoker.  

00:09:38 Narelle:        It is. Which is not a very healthy thing to do which you'll discover.  But I already knew that, but I still love it. So what happens is this chemical reaction between the amino acids and the sugars, and always remember carbohydrate equals sugar. It results in lots of different complexes, which are then referred to as Maillard reaction products. And one type of complex formed is called advanced glycation in products. So they come from foods that we consume, or our dogs consume in our diets, that have been exposed to heat and contain protein and carbs. So advanced glycation in products are automatically formed in kibble simply because most kibble contain a lot of carbohydrate and they've got a protein component and they're subject to high temperature. So that's the recipe for the Maillard reaction.  

00:10:29 Glenn:        So it's basically changing the chemical composition of it, or the cell composition of it.  

00:10:35 Narelle:        Things are just reacting together and creating bad things. So advanced glycation end products are abbreviated to AGEs. So A G E, Advanced Glycation End Product. So if I say AGEs, that's what I'm talking about. So the formation of AGEs, it's a normal sort of part of our metabolism. But when excessively high levels build up in the body because of a high dietary load, that's when it becomes pathological. So AGEs are pro-oxidants, they can damage tissues and they can delay tissue healing and repair, and tissues that are particularly sensitive to AGEs include connective tissues predominantly. But things like the lens of the eye and you know even the nerve myelin, so that myelin sheath, can be detrimentally affected by AGEs. When I read things like that, I think back to Ladybug, our French bulldog with a spinal cord injury and having a healthy myelin sheath is fundamental to nerve conduction throughout the body. And I think, thank goodness she's on a raw food diet because a kibble diet for her would be very detrimental. And it's not one of those things that's like, slap you in the face obvious when you feed kibble, but it is within the body creating damage.   

00:11:51 Glenn:        I remember some time ago on a news program that one of the anchor people on the news was suggesting that a form of their blindness was due to vegetable oils that were heated up. There was a long term study on it and I remember there was public outrage that this person was exposing how high temperatures and vegetable oil were causing some form of damage to the eye.  

00:12:19 Narelle:        Oh I'd believe it. I'm not familiar with it particularly. 

00:12:22 Glenn:        It goes back some years, I would say probably 20 odd years ago. But there was study around it at the time, which was raised through this anchor person's experience with their limited vision and was suggested by the physician that they were seeing at the time that because of his saturated diet with vegetable oils and so forth, that that was probably a leading cause of it. I'm only recalling early memories, but that was the topic of understanding that they had at the time.  

00:12:46 Narelle:        Yeah, a lot of those vegetable oils aren't great for our dogs either again, generally or because of the way they're processed but AGEs can also damage our DNA and negatively impact gene expression. So what happens in the body is that, and this is a really nerdy thing that I love, is that an AGE product binds to a receptor in our body, but the abbreviation of that complex between the two is RAGE.  

00:13:12 Glenn:        Oh my god, you've got AGE and RAGE.  

00:13:15 Narelle:        So AFA receptors bind into an AGE, Advanced Glycation End Product, so it's called a RAGE, which is the perfect acronym given what they do in the body. So RAGEs create a cascade of events that leads to inflammation and oxidative stress, it reduces the integrity of the epithelial tissues inside the body. It can cause vasoconstriction, that's narrowing of the blood vessels, which for people can lead to high blood pressure. For people and dogs, you know, different cardiovascular diseases. But in humans foods that have been exposed to high temperatures and this is things like, grilling, frying, barbecuing, roasting, searing, toasting, like they all are high in AGEs. So even if your diet appears to be reasonably healthy, you may still be consuming unhealthy amounts of harmful AGEs just because of the way your food is cooked. If you are barbecuing something, for example, it might have a hundred times more AGEs than if that food was raw. So that's sort of how that works. And some of the worst offenders are grilled meats, fried eggs and fried potato products like, french fries and chips, roast potatoes, things like that. So all the things people love, like barbecued meat and french fries  

00:14:27 Glenn:       Or create a RAGE effect  

00:14:28 Narelle:       Causing RAGEs to rampage throughout our body.  

00:14:31 Glenn:       Wow, that's sad.  

00:14:33 Narelle:        Sad stands for the Standard American and Australian diet, <laugh>.  

00:14:37 Glenn:        It's always some acronym for something, isn't there?  

00:14:40 Narelle:        There is, but I love that, the SAD diet. We're all eating a SAD diet that's killing us slowly. But back to the topic.  

00:14:45 Glenn:        Well then I was correct.  

00:14:47 Narelle:        It is sad, but in people, this increased dietary intake of AGEs, which leads to RAGEs, it's linked to age-related diseases, things like atherosclerosis, kidney disease, diseases of the eye as we've mentioned, but other things like osteoarthritis, allergies, gastrointestinal disorders, things like inflammatory bowel disease and even neurodegenerative disorders like Alzheimer's disease. Problem is, it's very similar for our dogs that are fed kibble. So in dogs AGEs have been linked to diseases such as diabetes, obesity, kidney disease, cardiovascular disease, skin issues, allergies, cataracts of the eyes similar to humans, osteoarthritis and neurodegenerative diseases. But in dogs instead of Alzheimer's disease it can promote canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome, none of that is what we want for our dogs. But the scary thing is that it's documented that AGEs occur in the fetus of dogs and it's probably the same with humans, I've just read the dog studies..  

00:15:49 Narelle:        Based on the diet of the mother it's starting like in utero, it's starting this exposure to these toxic compounds and then it just continues to accumulate over a lifetime because most dogs are fed kibble. 

00:15:57 Glenn: So that would be like an epigenetic effect. 

00:15:59 Narelle: Well it would because it can influence gene expression and impact DNA. So absolutely. We don't know what impact that is having in that regard. So it's no wonder that so many of our dogs are suffering from so many different disease states and dying of cancer. Because if you think about it, our dogs are exposed to AGEs, as I've just mentioned in utero. And then at about six or seven weeks of age they get weaned on for the most part to a commercial kibble, which as we've just gone through, is very high in AGEs. And then most people just keep feeding kibble to the dog, the same kibble for every meal of every day for their entire life.  

00:16:35 Narelle:        So it's this massive onslaught of toxicity that creates that cascade of systemic inflammation in the body that leads to disease. So that's pretty full on, but just when you thought kibble couldn't get any worse, this does sound like a bit of a bashing session, but we'll pull it all together at the end. Studies have also confirmed that the Maillard Reaction can also contribute to acrylamide formation. And I think it actually goes, not that it really matters, but I think the Maillard Reaction creates acrylamide, and then acrylamide reacts with other Maillard Reaction products that then create the Advanced Glycation End Products. But whichever the order is, you get both. So acrylamide is classified as a group to a carcinogen, which basically means that it's probably carcinogenic to humans, but there's a lot more evidence of carcinogenicity in animals. But in human studies, acrylamide has been linked to certain cancers as well as things like low birth weight, reduced fetal growth and increased risk of disorders to the nervous system.  

00:17:37 Narelle:        And then studies on laboratory animals, including dogs unfortunately, they've shown that exposure to acrylamide through the diet greatly increases the likelihood of, as we've just discussed, gene mutations and tumours, neurotoxicity. Adverse effects on malreproduction, so people who are breeding dogs, that can have a big impact. Skeletal muscle weakness, ataxia and just developmental problems generally. And I was surprised to read that back in 2011, there was actually a paper and the title of the paper was, ‘Should veterinarians consider acrylamide that potentially occurs in starch rich food stuffs’, so think kibble because kibble can be up to 60% carbs, ‘as a neurotoxin in dogs’. So that was the title of a paper, ‘should vets pretty much consider acrylamide and neurotoxin in dogs?’. And the reason that paper came about was because three healthy Labrador puppies developed ataxia convulsions and two of them died shortly after eating the burnt crust of maize porridge. So maize stink corn, it was just burnt. So a lot of pet owners, let's say you make some toast and you burnt the crust, you might just throw the burnt bit to your dog, or if you've got some steak and there's a burnt bit on the edge, often people would throw those to their dogs. But it's so bad to do that. They determined that it was acrylamide toxicity that had affected these puppies so severely.   

00:19:05 Glenn:        And that was proven?  

00:19:06 Narelle:        Yes. There's a paper on it. I can link the paper to my Facebook page for people if they wanna see. I guess what's concerning when it comes to what we're feeding our dogs though is that the highest levels of acrylamide tend to occur in starchy foods like grains and potatoes that have been extruded, which is what kibble basically is, you know, a lot of grains. And you think about the grain-free varieties, now they're chock full of potato. And potatoes are one of the worst for acrylamide formation. So because acrylamide is considered to be both genotoxic and carcinogenic, any exposure can potentially damage DNA and lead to cancer. And the European Food Safety Authority, they did a really comprehensive review on acrylamide in the human diet and it was only back in 2015 and they couldn't actually set a safe daily intake amount. Now the concerning thing is, they estimated the dose range of acrylamide, which was less likely, or which was likely to only cause a small incidence of tumours and other adverse health effects. So there's no safe intake level for acrylamide. So they set a daily intake basically that only a small amount of people are gonna get tumours and get sick. So that's pretty bad.00:20:19 Glenn:        It's very bad, it's not pretty bad, it's very bad.  

00:20:22 Narelle:        So they know it's detrimental. But the problem is,  with the advanced Glycation End Products, in terms of acrylamide specifically, the worst foods are fried potato products. So french fries, roast potatoes and other things like biscuits, crackers, breads, cereals.  

00:20:38 Glenn:        Oh man, just listing all my favorite foods.  

00:20:41 Narelle:        But what was concerning, and I think it was the European Food Safety, or it was one of the world government info sheets on acrylamide intake in the human diet. They even listed those rusks that are given to infants to chew on because they're often made from potato. So they're a potential source as well and that's really distressing. I think when you learn how many how many human mothers realise that what they're giving their infant to chew on is a source of acrylamide and there's no safe intake level for acrylamide. So it seems this is a real downer of a session.  

00:21:19 Glenn:        Well, it's informative. I think things like this really need to be known by people. I think that hedging on my favorite saying of all the time, do the best you can until you know better, and when you know better, do better. That's comprehensive of what we're actually talking about. Like a lot of people just don't know this, so they're completely unaware of what they're doing, which is fundamentally why they do it. If you know it, and then you still choose to do it, well be it upon you. But if you don't know it, how are you supposed to be effective against it?  

00:21:49 Narelle:       Absolutely. And I guess the difference with humans versus our pets, for example, is that yes we consume foods that may be high in AGEs and acrylamide, but you know, most people have a variety in their diet and they are eating a lot of fresh foods, in addition to those foods that are problematic. So that's decreasing the overall burden on our systems of those toxic compounds. But our poor dogs, I mean it applies to cats as well, but I tend to focus on dogs. It's the dogs that have fed the same kibble every day of their entire lives. They're the ones that are really gonna have a massive burden and will suffer the most consequences as a result of this. That's Advanced Glycation End Products in acrylamide. But another important aspect that pet owners should understand is that the more a starchy carbohydrate is cooked, so let's say via the extrusion process, the more rapidly that starch is digested.  

00:22:44 Narelle:        So this can have significant implications on metabolic function because, whether it's us or our dogs, it promotes high blood glucose in insulin spikes. And some of the worst defenders are rice and corn. So, you know, the bulk of a lot of kibble is rice and corn. It's cheap, it fills the bag. And then that increases the risk of being overweight and obese. And we mentioned in the last podcast that nearly two thirds of dogs are overweight or obese. And then all of those diseases that occur as a result of obesity, you know, things like joint disease, diabetes and heart disease, people don't think about those sort of conditions for our dogs. But so many dogs, like the number of dogs suffering from those conditions, is really increasing.  

00:23:27 Glenn:        Yeah, that was a problem that never used to be around and it's either because of A, we weren't looking for it, or B, the population of dogs was far less, or C, that there is a problem with what they're eating. 

00:23:41 Narelle:        Look, there's no doubt in my mind that the overall deterioration in the health of our dogs is following very closely in the footsteps of our deterioration in health over time because of diet. You know, everything comes back to the diet. People are eating crappy foods, highly processed foods with no nutritional value and what our dogs are being put on now is really lacking. And it's not that it's just lacking nutrients, it's also got all this toxic stuff in it as well. And studies have shown that high glycemic load diets, so this is where starchy carbohydrates are highly processed and cooked, also leads to the increased incidences of some cancers. And there's no doubt that cancer rates have increased quite a bit with our dogs.  

00:24:25 Narelle:        Because of all of that and because of what I now know in terms of the negative health effects of kibble, one, due to the type of ingredients and the quality of the ingredients used, but also just the way it's manufactured. That's why I personally can't bring myself to feed my dogs kibble. But I do understand the numerous reasons why many pet owners would. And I often hear from people that, you know, I've been feeding my dog this kibble for so many years and my dog's fine. Unfortunately, like low grade inflammation, and that's what I was saying earlier, it's not gonna slap you in the face lYour dog's go has these RAGEs going throughout their body. So it's not usually apparent in the short term, but when foods that trigger inflammation are fed over a period of years, that's when we see the increase in degenerative diseases.  

00:25:09 Glenn:       So it's cumulative.  

00:25:11 Narelle:        It is. So people don't think, oh my dog's eight years old, it's got osteoarthritis. It's just old age, you know, people just accept disease with age as part of old age. and I think that's crazy. There's no reason that we have to get sick and diseased just because we're older,  

00:25:29 Glenn:        Especially prematurely as well.  

00:25:31 Narelle:        Yeah, that's true too, absolutely. And you think about humans, there's so many more young adults,  

00:25:36 Glenn:       Lke how do you know that you didn't have 10 more years?  

00:25:39 Narelle:        Yeah.  

00:25:39 Glenn:        Or five more years in a dog's case, how do you know that? Somebody might say, oh, you're 80, you just got to the end of your time. But if you have had a good diet and a well-balanced diet consisting of the correct pyramids of foods that you should have eaten, then how do you know you didn't live to 90?  

00:25:54 Narelle:        Yeah and live there well  

00:25:56 Glenn:        Well that's right. 

00:25:57 Narelle:       Because, I mean, we're huge on quality of life. So you know, there's no point living to a hundred if you're sick and miserable. You know, we want quality of life for us, we want quality of life for our dogs,  and you know, a lot of health is diet related and is preventable. That's why we have lifestyle diseases. Most people are dying of lifestyle diseases and now unfortunately our dogs are as well. I guess the point of the podcast wasn't to scaremonger people into feeding a raw food diet, like a hundred percent. But at the same time, we can't keep our heads buried in the sand as to what impact kibble is actually having on our dogs' health and wellbeing. Today was more about providing factual information as it relates to our dog's diets and a little bit to our own diets.  

00:26:39 Narelle:        But what people do, as you said earlier, what people do with that information is ultimately upon them, it's up to them. I know personally, I'm not going to give up my occasional roasted potato or barbecued beef ribs, 'cause they're delicious. I'm not an extremist in any way and people who work with me, my clients will know this because you know, it's what you do the majority of the time that makes the biggest difference to your health. So I always live by the 80:20 rule. All I ask of pet owners is think about what you might be able to do differently to mix up your dog's diet so that it's not a hundred percent kibble. Even following the 80:20 rule, take 20% of your existing kibble out of each daily  ration and add some fresh foods just to reduce the burden on your dog's system.  

00:27:22 Narelle:       And I would've mentioned it in a previous podcast, but you know, there was that one study that showed that dogs fed vegetables three times a week had a significant reduction in the incidents of cancer risk. So easy. I mean things like eggs, canned sardines, leftover vegetables, cooked veggies off your plates, throw them some berries or some chopped up fruit. It doesn't have to be complicated, it just has to be raw. Well, or cooked, but just not cooked like barbecued or grilled or toasted and all those. But if you're steaming some vegetables, that's a great addition. So there's a lot of little simple things that people can do that aren't a burden to their daily regime of feeding their dogs that could add years to your dog's life. And there was another study, I haven't read it for a long time, so the details are vague, but dogs fed a home cooked diet and I don't think the study stipulated whether it was raw or cooked. This was years ago, so it might've been back in the day where families just literally gave their dogs the leftover scraps from what they were eating, but they lived nearly three years longer than dogs on a hundred percent kibble diet. So three years more without dogs, who doesn't want more time with our dogs? Their lives are short enough as it is as any pet parent will know. I hope that's given people some food for thought.  

00:28:36 Glenn:        Oh, there's my little pitch at the end,  

00:28:38 Narelle:        My pun. Is it a pun? I don't think it is.  

00:28:40 Glenn:        No it's not really a pun. It's something to contemplate.  

00:28:43 Narelle:        It is. But if you do have questions about what we've spoken about today, jump onto my Facebook page, Natural Health for People and Pets. I'll try and upload some more information around acrylamide and advanced glycation in products for people who are interested.  

00:28:57 Glenn:        And you're also trying to make your way on Instagram these days?  

00:29:00 Narelle:       Oh yeah. People, I'm a bit of a social media hermit. I'm trying. I'm trying to get with it with social media. So yeah, you'll see a few more things pop up on my Instagram account, Natural Health and Nutrition.

00:29:14 Glenn:       Now that we've just talked about your social media, how do people get in contact with you?  

00:29:18 Narelle:        Several ways. They can email me at narelle@naturalhealthandnutrition.com.au. They can go to my website naturalhealthandnutrition.com.au. I've got two Facebook pages, so my Natural Health and Nutrition page and then there's the podcast page, which is Natural Health for People and Pets. Any of those avenues will get to me, and if you're still struggling, find Glen and you'll find me.  

00:29:41 Glenn:        And I'm sure people will be very excited to find out that you are planning a Sydney seminar.  

00:29:46 Narelle:        I am. I've been…  

00:29:47 Glenn:        Inundated.  

00:29:49 Narelle:       I have, I've had a lot of demand because we were supposed to do it last April, May, I can't even remember now.  

00:29:53 Glenn:       But Covid sort of slammed everyone. 

00:29:56 Narelle:        Covid canceled that event and ever since people have been like, when are you doing Sydney? When are you doing Sydney? So middle of the year sometime, I haven't picked a date yet. I'll be doing my one day Canine Nutrition Seminar. So keep your eyes out for that being posted on social media. 

00:30:08 Glenn:        And that will be at Dural?  

00:30:09 Narelle:        That'll be in Dural, Sydney. Beautiful location. But I think we'll leave it there for today.

00:30:16 Glenn:       Goodbye y'all.  

00:30:17    Narelle:     Thanks everyone. Bye.