Episode 31: Collagen for joint health – what you need to know

00:02:46 Glenn:        Welcome back to Natural Health for People and Pets. I'm co-host of the show, Glenn Cooke, and I'm just gonna pass it over to the host of the show who dropped a big bomb on us last time we had an episode and surprised everybody, including myself. Welcome Narelle Cooke.  

00:03:00 Narelle:       Hello everyone. Yeah, that was a little bit controversial last episode, wasn't it?  But still fascinating. Like I just love learning new things, and discovering that the evidence behind Glucosamine particularly is very weak and not what we thought it was. And the evidence behind Chondroitin was a little bit stronger and more promising, but still nothing to what I think the majority of people believed.  

00:03:21 Glenn:       Well, there's no point in going the rest of your life being involved in your own little echo chamber and being stuck in a paradigm where you don't know what the truth is, but you're just going off old information or biased information or completely wrong information. For me, it was a bombshell, but I'm glad I know it now because there's no point in wasting my time doing something which has been peer reviewed in many cases and found to be not what it was sold to be.  

 00:03:45 Narelle:      Yeah. I guess the challenge is time. Like I specifically sat down and made the time to look into that and I mean, who's got the time to look at the research <laugh>  

00:03:54 Glenn:         If you don’t know what we're talking about, if you just come in on the show, which some people do, they just pick up on a show. Go back to last week's episode and listen to that first before you continue listening to this one, 'cause it's on glucosamine and chondroitin.  

00:04:07 Narelle:       Chondroitin. Yeah. So today I'm gonna continue that joint health conversation, but we're going to focus on collagen today. Right? So <laugh> <laugh>, what's gonna come up?  

00:04:19 Glenn:         Okay, let's go.  

00:04:21 Narelle:       First things first, as always, what is collagen? It's actually the most abundant protein in the body. And as a protein, it's made up of amino acids.  

00:04:31 Glenn:         We produce it naturally, don't we?  

00:04:32 Narelle:       Yes. You know, amino acids are the building blocks of protein, which makes up all the different tissues and different parts of the body, but collagen primarily contains glycine, proline, and hydroxyproline. It does include different amino acids in different combinations depending on the type of collagen. But basically, that's the primary structure. Right. So the main role of collagen is to provide structural support to our connective tissues because it's rigid and it's quite resistant to stretching but has a little bit of flexibility. It's perfect for supporting skin, tendons, bones, and ligaments. We also get collagen in the corneas of the eye, blood vessels, our muscles, and the intestinal lining. It's just all over the place. Really important component of our body.  

00:05:16 Glenn:        Is this what people get injected into their lips to make their lips look plumper? Is that the same thing?

00:05:21 Narelle:        Uh, I don't know. You know, me and beauty just don't go together <laugh>. So  

00:05:25 Glenn:       <laugh>,  

00:05:26 Narelle:       I have no idea. I'm lucky if I brush.  

00:05:29 Glenn:         I dunno either. I'm not involved in that sort of world.  

00:05:31 Narelle:       Sounds familiar, doesn't it? I think it's like collagen. Fillers.  

00:05:34 Glenn:         Yeah. I think that's what people do. I think they get collagen injected directly into their lips to make their lips appear fatter and plumper. Like there are really bizarre images where people like their lips are like four or five times the size that they should be and they just, I don't get it. Fish lips. Well, yeah, I don't get it. I don't get why people wanna do that sort of thing. But it's your body. It's your temple. Yeah.  

00:05:54 Narelle:       Look, I don't think I painted my nails until I was in my thirties. <laugh> 

00:05:58 Glenn:         It's like you're such a nerd. 

00:06:00 Narelle:        Yeah, and look, even though we just say collagen and we assume that it's all the same, it can be divided into several subgroups depending on the type of structures that the collagen forms. Most of the literature says there're 28 different types of collagen. But a 2023 paper said there are actually 29, so I'll go with the latest. So even though there are 29 different types of collagen, the most common are types 1, 2, 3, 4, and five. With type one comprising the largest percentage of collagen in the body. So all of these different types of collagen, they all have a characteristic structure that's different from the others. This is what determines its properties as well as where it's gonna be used in the body. So it's important to note that each type of collagen exhibits distinct differences based on the structural features of that type.  

00:06:44 Narelle:       So not all collagens are the same or will have the same benefits in the body, whether it's for us or our dogs. And that's what we'll be covering as we go through today. You mentioned earlier that we produce collagen naturally. So let's talk about that first before we get into supplementation. So we're always continuously producing collagen. It's being made, it's being broken down, then it's being renewed again. But as we age, our body produces less collagen and the existing collagen breaks down at a faster rate. The collagen also has a lower quality as we get older, which is why connective tissues lose their elasticity and they become more brittle. So signs that your collagen levels may be decreasing include things like wrinkly or saggy skin. You know, that hollowing in and around the eyes and the face. If you've got stiffer, like less flexible tendons and ligaments, any joint pain, loss of mobility due to joint damage or stiffness, even problems with blood flow If the blood vessel walls like the integrity of the collagen in those degrades.  

00:07:40 Narelle: If we look at lifestyle factors that can negatively impact collagen - things that will be detrimental, smoking. I think most people would be aware of that. So smoking decreases collagen production as well as damaging the collagen, which is what leads to wrinkles, as well as slow wound healing. Exposure to UV light. Again, too much sunlight reduces collagen production, causing it to break down more rapidly. Eating too much sugar and refined carbs. So this is just as applicable to our dogs as us. And I did a whole webinar recently on this topic. You know, the standard commercial kibble is anywhere between 30 and 60% ultra-processed carbohydrates, which are highly refined carbohydrates that have a huge impact on blood glucose levels in the body.  

00:08:32 Narelle:       So when we're eating, or if our dogs are eating too much sugar or too many refined carbs, that sugar in the blood actually can bind to proteins through a chemical reaction called glycation, which creates advanced glycation end products. And these are really damaging to tissues. So they can interfere with the cross-linking of tissues. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they can interfere with cell receptors. So basically they make tissues not function the way they should be functioning. And they have a huge role in slowing down tissue healing and repair. So not what we want for us or our dogs. Then there's non-lifestyle factors that can impact collagen production, such as various autoimmune diseases. Then you've got certain genetic mutations that can muck things up. So just some basic things to consider if you wanna maintain as much of your natural collagen as possible and not go down the injection path.  

00:09:20 Glenn:        I just wanna circle back real quick. I'm not sure where I heard it from. I think it was Joe Rogan where there was a doctor talking about when you are actually out in the sun, by the time you start getting a nice healthy tan, like start browning up. He said that's where the damage to the skin is already done. Like a lot of people don't realise that, and they think it's nice and healthy to look beautifully tanned and like a nice olivey tan colour where he said, unfortunately, that's where all of the damage’s already been done, because you're cooking at that stage. I didn't realise that, 'cause I've always been, I don't tan. Well, I'm a burner and I've got a nice pasty white complexion. I kind of found that fascinating. I always thought the opposite. I thought that it was good to be out in the sun. You're getting plenty of vitamin D, I guess there's a safe limit and there's an unsafe limit.  

00:10:07 Narelle:      Look, I think about this every now and then. Like when I grew up really before sun safety was a thing. So we used to get burnt constantly.  

00:10:15 Glenn:         Like absolutely. You'd come inside blistered and have to have calamine lotion rubbed all over you and  

00:10:20 Narelle:       Aloe vera.  

00:10:21 Glenn:         Aloe vera? Yeah. Oh, I use aloe vera now when I get burned  

 00:10:23 Narelle:       I worry about that. But so far so good. Yep. Touch, touch wood. So let's have a look at collagen supplements. We can get collagen supplements as capsules, gummies, so there's something for you.  

00:10:33 Glenn:        Oh, cool.  

00:10:33 Narelle:      Liquids, powders, they can be taken on their own. They can be mixed into food or drink. They're so versatile and the composition of different supplements will vary. But they typically contain collagen types one, two, or three or a mixture of those three. What’s important to understand is the different forms of collagen. So at a very basic level we have what's called raw or under-natured collagen. So this form is where the collagen protein remains intact. The next step down from that is what's called hydrolyzed collagen, sometimes referred to as collagen hydrolysate or collagen peptides. So this is where the collagen is broken down into smaller protein fragments. And those protein fragments are what's called peptides. And then we've got gelatin. So gelatin is created by partially degrading collagen using heat. So it has a similar nutritional profile to collagen because it comes from collagen, but it has different physical properties and uses.  

00:11:26 Narelle:       So gelatin, it only dissolves in hot water. Whereas collagen can dissolve in either hot or cold water. Gelatin, as the name suggests, has gelling properties whereas collagen doesn't. So gelatin, you know, it's most commonly used as a gelling agent in cooking, for example. Collagen for the most part, it's extracted from animal byproducts. It might come from the bone, cartilage, tendons, the skin. It could come from cattle, pigs, chicken, fish or other marine organisms. I did read that vegan collagen is now being produced. I haven't looked into this very much, but my understanding is that they're made using genetically modified yeast and bacteria and they work differently in the body to the animal derived collagens. But yeah, that's a thing. Also, depending on the company that's producing the collagen, it's gonna undergo various processing techniques to obtain those bioactive collagen peptides, for example. And the methods used will influence the actual amino acid composition and the size of those peptides present in the final product. And that's gonna impact things like the solubility, the bioavailability, and the functionality of that particular product in the body. Which brings me back again to not all collagen products are the same.  

00:12:40 Narelle:       So let's have a look at the evidence, we'll start with the human evidence and then move on to dogs. And as per the last podcast, I've tried to just focus on the systematic reviews because you know, they're covering dozens of studies within the the one review rather than just talking about individual studies, which would be just way too time consuming. So in 2021 there was a systematic review looking at the effects of collagen peptide supplementation on body composition, collagen synthesis and recovery from joint injury and exercise. So what they were looking at, they were looking at joint pain and recovery from joint injuries. They were looking at body composition, they were looking at muscle soreness and recovery from exercise and muscle protein synthesis and collagen synthesis. Of all the studies used in the review, all but one used collagen hydrolysate or collagen peptides, and I think there was only one trial that used the undenatured collagen.  

00:13:33 Narelle:      But what they found, is that there was strong evidence and significant benefit from taking between 5 and 15 grams of collagen a day for improving joint pain and joint functionality. They found that 15 grams of collagen per day was beneficial for body composition and strength with resistance training. But even more so in elderly men with sarcopenia. So sarcopenia is that age-related muscle wasting or muscle loss. So they found that collagen supplementation provided benefits in that 

00:14:04 Glenn:       To decrease it or ..? 

00:14:06 Narelle:      To improve it. It was more beneficial for the elderly men with sarcopenia than it was for younger men who were recreationally active. And that just makes sense because the more deficient we are in something, the more likely we are to see a significant benefit when we supplement. Yep. They found that 15 grams a day was more effective than 5 grams per day for elevating collagen synthesis. And if you're into exercise, they recommended consuming the collagen about an hour before exercise to actually maximise that collagen synthesis. There was also a significant improvement in muscle recovery with collagen. The thing people need to keep in mind too when it comes to a product such as collagen, is that most of the studies are running between three and six months. And from everything I'm reading, it really sounds like you need to be taking collagen for at least three months, to really notice a benefit kick in.  

00:14:54 Glenn:        I think that's where people start to give up on things if they don't feel like an instant hit from it. We've talked about this before where people get on these tangents where unless they get instant gratification from something and they go, well it doesn't work, I'm not feeling it immediately, there's no change to it.  

00:15:09 Narelle:       Yeah. And that's always been the challenge in the work I do, whether I'm supporting a human with their health or a dog with their health. If people don't see a change within a couple of weeks, they're just like, oh,  

00:15:20 Glenn:         Doesn't work.  

00:15:21 Narelle:       Doesn't  work. But when it comes to joint health, it really is a long-term plan. There was another review done in 2022, but this had a different focus. So this was looking at the clinical use and the efficacy of collagen. This was published in the nutritional medicine journal. So the aim of this systematic review was to determine diseases where collagen has been shown to have significant benefits. It assessed the safety, bioavailability, the efficacy of collagen. Because what they wanted to do at the end of this review is to be able to provide therapeutic recommendations around the use of collagen to healthcare professionals. This review actually included the various types of collagen, the collagen hydrolysate or peptides, as well as some un-hydrolyzed collagen forms. So they concluded that collagen supplementation is strongly indicated for its positive therapeutic effect on pain management of osteoarthritis for balancing blood sugar in type two diabetes.  

00:16:18 Narelle:       Not something I ever would've thought of for collagen. Wound healing, skin aging and post-exercise body composition and strength, that was all significant positive benefits. Then they found promising results for the use of collagen in osteoporosis, hypertension, rheumatoid arthritis, tendinopathy, cellulite, atopic dermatitis, sarcopenia and brittle nail syndrome. And then they also concluded that there was a lack of clinical evidence to support the use of collagen for weight loss in obesity and in fibromyalgia. And they hypothesized that collagen may have a beneficial role in gut health by reducing inflammation. But the clinical trials weren't enough to really say one way or the other, but they hypothesized that it would be beneficial.  

00:17:00 Glenn:        So were there claims out there that collagen can be used effectively in weight loss?  

00:17:04 Narelle:       There must be. Again, I haven't looked into that specifically because it's not something that I would think of to use for weight loss. Apparently, it's not.  

00:17:12 Glenn:         Okay. There you go. We can rule that out.  

00:17:14 Narelle:       Yep, and look, a final review of the human literature was done only this year. We're in 2023 still are we? We are. Oh, it's flying so quickly this year.  

00:17:23 Glenn:         It certainly is.  

00:17:24 Narelle:       This review again had a slightly different angle for where they were coming at with the collagen supplementation. So they were looking specifically at skin health and orthopaedic diseases, and they looked at all of the published studies between 2000 and 2022. So that's a decent span of time. But the great thing about this review is that they only looked at studies that were pure collagen and that didn't include any other ingredient or nutrient combined with collagen, 'cause then that just muddies the water, because what's doing what? Which was, you know, part of the issue in the last episode with the systematic review of glucosamine and chondroitin because a lot of those supplements had other combinations of ingredients in them. So was it the hyaluronic acid in it, or was it the chondroitin, or was it this or that? So this isn't complicated by that. So in this review of 22 years of research, they concluded that the hydrolyzed collagen, specifically, positively promotes skin changes such as decreased wrinkle formation, increased skin elasticity, increased hydration, increased collagen content density and synthesis, increases in bone strength density and mass improvements in joint stiffness and mobility and functionality and reductions in pain.  

00:18:37 Narelle:       So that's three pretty massive systematic reviews of looking at collagen in the human space and just really for the most part, quite positive for its therapeutic benefits.   

00:18:46 Glenn:         Is there any downside to it?  

00:18:48 Narelle:       Not really, other than it not doing what you want it to do, but I'll delve a little bit deeper into that aspect shortly. But look, it doesn't interact with medications. It's generally well tolerated. Like it, it'd be very unlikely to have side effects. The main thing people need to be aware of is if they've got a seafood allergy, and they're buying a collagen that comes from a marine source, for example. If you've got a beef intolerance and it comes from beef etc.. So that would be the main concern. And in the human studies, the dosing for skin is a little bit lower so you know, up to 10 grams per day. But, for joint health tends to be up to about 20 grams per day and over a much longer period of time.  

 00:19:25 Glenn:         If people are wondering why I'm asking these questions, it's because you don't disclose this with me before we do the podcast. Like you do your research and study, I sit down and turn on the computer and I'm learning with you as we go. That's why I'm asking these questions. It's not preempted that when we sit down to talk that I know what we're gonna talk about. I'm generally learning on the go as well. That's why I'm asking these controversial questions from time to time because we're hearing the pros for something. Last week we heard the cons for something that I’d heard a lot of pros about. So I feel it's important for people to know if there were all these wild benefits for it, like fantastic benefits. Is there any downside to it? I think that's what people need to know as well to feel good about purchasing and using a supplement on themselves and their dogs.  

00:20:08 Narelle:       I will come to that a little bit. It is great that you don’t know what I'm going to talk about because you sit there intently looking at me and listening to what I'm saying, so that's nice. If we look at the dog research, it tends to be broken down into using primarily two different types of collagen. One called undenatured type two collagen, and then the hydrolyzed collagen peptides. Both of those types have been shown to be extremely safe and well tolerated by dogs. I've already mentioned there aren't really any cautions or contraindications for people or animals other than that allergy intolerance aspect. So the undenatured type two collagen, it's a patented form that's mostly derived from chicken cartilage. It's been used in various clinical trials in humans and companion animals such as dogs and horses.  

00:20:53 Narelle:       But unlike other forms of collagen, the undenatured type two, it actually works a bit differently in the body. So it's believed to provide benefits by activating certain immune cells. So rather than directly stimulating the growth of cartilage, it's working on the immune system. These immune cells, migrate through the circulation and then when they recognize type two collagen, they release anti-inflammatory molecules, which then help to reduce joint inflammation and prevent the immune system from attacking and damaging the cartilage. So that's really different and really interesting in terms of the mechanism of action in how it works. I didn't mention this at the start that the whole reason why these last two podcasts came about. The reason I delved into the research on all of these compounds is because unfortunately, I've been having supply issues with my current collagen.  

00:21:47 Narelle:       I've been researching other suitable options that are still clinically proven to support joint health in people and dogs. Because I would never want to randomly select a non-descript unproven source of collagen in any of my products. But I also thought if I have to change collagen powders, maybe I'll upgrade the CC Collagen Forte product to also include other beneficial joint supplements, such as, as I originally thought glucosamine and chondroitin. So that's what led me to delve into the research around those compounds, and I'm glad I did, because I, like everyone else had just assumed, oh, it's gonna make my product better if I put glucosamine and chondroitin in them because they're such amazing joint supplements, which turns out not to be the case. So I am glad I know that now. So there will be no need for me to change my formula away from a pure collagen powder.  

00:22:37 Glenn:         Well I'm glad you disclosed that you are selling it so people don't go…Well, there's a vested interest or a bias here.  

 00:22:43 Narelle:       Yeah. The current Collagen Forte that I have been using is strongly evidence-based. It was based on specific registered collagen that consists of those unique bioactive collagen peptides that have been clinically shown to stimulate the cartilage cells and increase the production of new cartilage in dogs. So there was a lot of research around it. So it's quite disappointing that I have been having supply issues. But the great news is that I found another registered collagen product that consists of a different blend of those bioactive collagen peptides. And this time, and this is really important for people to note, and I'll be putting this all over my social media and the website as well, it's coming from beef now. Previously it was coming from pork. So that could be significant for some people. But this particular collagen that I'll be using going forward, and again, there'll be announcements made when that switch occurs. It's actually stated to be the most clinically studied bioactive collagen peptides on the market with research spanning 30 years involving thousands of participants to prove the product's positive effects. It's also the first type 1 collagen to gain regulatory approval for its significant benefits to joint health. The way this one works, it has been designed to specifically target the regeneration of joint cartilage. And it has been scientifically proven in numerous human studies, and animal studies to activate the growth of new cartilage. Clinical studies have shown that when taken daily, these specific bioactive collagen peptides help in the reconstruction of what's called the extracellular matrix of the joint cartilage. By increasing the biosynthesis of type two collagen and other important compounds in that extracellular matrix, it works to maintain normal joint function to reduce joint discomfort. And by doing that, it reduces pain and improves overall mobility.  

00:24:34 Narelle:      So that's sort of the science and the mechanism of action behind the new collagen that I'll be using. And if we look at some of the research on that, there was a study that looked at dogs and horses, but we'll just focus on the dog part of it. So this study was done in 2021. It was looking at the efficacy of a chondro-protective food supplement on animals with osteoarthritis. So they had 52 dogs with osteoarthritis. They were randomised into three groups. 20 dogs received the powdered collagen, which is the same one that I'll be using in the new Collagen Forte. 21 dogs received glucosamine sulphate, so that's interesting, and 11 dogs received a special diet, which was actually the Hills JD diet, which is the joint diet. But they added some extra fish oil and vitamin E to the food and the trial went for 16 weeks.  

00:25:23 Narelle:       So at the end of the trial period, they found that surprisingly, glucosamine sulphate and the collagen hydrolysate were more effective than the dog food for improving symptoms. But, that supplementing with the collagen hydrolysate had the greatest effect on reducing lameness in the dogs with osteoarthritis. Remember from last episode too, if you are going to use glucosamine, use the glucosamine sulphate because that has slightly better evidence behind it than the glucosamine hydrochloride form. In human studies, looking at this particular bioactive collagen peptide formula in a study on people with knee osteoarthritis, they actually used MRI techniques, so that’s magnetic resonance imaging, to see the structural changes in the cartilage tissue over 48 weeks in these people with knee osteoarthritis, and they found that in the group that was being supplemented with the collagen, that there was a statistically significant increase in this particular compound in the matrix called proteoglycan.  

00:26:21 Narelle:      So there was an increase in the proteoglycan density in the tissues of the knee, indicating that the collagen was having a direct impact on cartilage tissue regeneration. So they actually saw that through the MRI.

00:26:33 Glenn:       And not the others?

00:26:34 Narelle:     And not the placebo group. That's great. But again, 48 weeks, that's a long time. Another study using the same collagen clearly demonstrated the benefits of daily intake for the treatment of activity-related knee pain and how many people, you know, get sore knees from exercise and the like. 

00:26:51 Glenn:       And age.  

00:26:52 Narelle:     Yeah. And age. So after only six weeks of taking the collagen, they found a statistically significant improvement in pain, stiffness, and physical function. Um, and these results were even more pronounced after 12 weeks of treatment. This is really great. According to the study authors, they stated, and I'll quote “this particular collagen may help to prevent the clinical manifestation of chronic degenerative joint diseases”. So that's a pretty powerful statement to say about an ingredient or a product.  

00:27:22 Glenn:        Absolutely.  

00:27:22 Narelle:      The great thing is that this particular collagen has a neutral odour and a neutral taste. So even if you've got, like a fussy dog, chances are they're not even going to notice that it's in there. It's also not going to interact with any other supplements or ingredients that you're putting in the bowl. It really is quite fascinating what you learn when you start looking for evidence-based ingredients. So in looking for a collagen powder, for example, to specifically support joint health in our dogs, I also discovered that depending on how the collagen is processed, there are certain forms of collagen that are specifically designed to target different tissues of the body over others. Which reminds me of the classic TV ad, oils ain't oils. But coming back to a point you made before. So I guess the take-home message is that not every collagen product is created equally or will have the same benefit in the body. 

00:28:12 Glenn:       I think that goes across the entire range of anything you take. There's evidence to show that there's good and bad in everything and there's ethical people out there who strive to make it their life's work to find the truth to improve any product they put to market. And there's also people out there who will do things lean and cheap and nasty because they don't care. They put profits over people, or pets anytime. And they're the people who deserve the highest form of contempt when they just go and find something that's horrible, there's no evidence behind it and it's literally just snake oil in a packet. 

00:28:44 Narelle:       I guess the challenge with collagen is that most people just think collagen is collagen.  

00:28:50 Glenn:        They probably don't research as deeply as you and other people who peer review products. People in the world are susceptible to marketing, and they're susceptible to pseudosciences, I put myself on that platform, and I'm happy to receive the slings and arrows for it because I've done it myself multiple times. I've gone off and bought things like glucosamine and chondroitin. I was a big believer in that, even to the point where I was advocating it to friends and family for their own joint support and for their dogs, only to find out from your research that it's not what we believed it was.  

00:29:22 Narelle:       As I've stated, there are some bioactive collagen peptide formulas that are designed to specifically target joint health, which is what I'm using. But there are other forms that will more specifically target muscle cells, which have been shown to be beneficial for recovery from resistance and endurance exercise. There are formulas that are specifically designed to target bone cells, which would be beneficial in cases of let's say osteopenia or osteoporosis. There are bioactive collagen peptide formulas specific to skin cells, which is a common form used in the beauty industry. So if you are not getting the results that you want, you need to consider what…… 

00:29:58 Glenn:        Formulation you have. 

00:30:00 Narelle:      Yeah, what you are using. So it can make a huge difference in getting the desired results for your dog if you're not using the correct form of collagen. So if you are using collagen because you've got a working dog or a sporting dog and you want to support joint health and ligaments and cartilage and injury prevention and injury recovery, and you are not getting the results - but maybe they've got a beautiful coat, maybe you're using the wrong collagen. My recommendation to people is always to look at a minimum for a product that contains hydrolyzed collagen peptides to get optimal absorption and bioavailability. And if a company is using hydrolyzed collagen peptides, no doubt they will have that on their label. As for anything, there shouldn't be any artificial fillers or additives. I always prefer powder over capsules or gummies, because I mean they contain binders and fillers and sweeteners and just things we don't need.  

00:30:49 Glenn:         You're always attacking my gummies. 

00:30:52 Narelle:       I know, I just can't believe they've created adult gummies for supplements.  

00:30:56 Glenn:       <laughs>  

00:30:56 Narelle:       Make sure that the label states the animal that the collagen is derived from. Again, if you or your pet has an allergy or an intolerance, that's important. And just keep in mind that collagen is best used daily over the longer term for the maximum benefits. So that's the collagen story. The research into collagen was a lot more complicated than I thought it was going to be.  

00:31:19 Glenn:         I do recall you saying that when you started off on this journey,  

00:31:22 Narelle:       I thought, oh, just I'll spend a day researching collagen. Nope. Three or four days later, I'm still deep-diving into all the different aspects of collagen. So today I've kept it quite superficial because once you get into the guts of it, it's just a lot of molecular biology and kilo daltons and things like that. I'm like, oh no, people don't really need to know the molecular weight of different collagens.  

00:31:41 Glenn:       I'm sure on your show notes you'll have links to evidence if people really wanna look into this themselves.  

00:31:47 Narelle:     Oh yeah, I can do those review papers. Yep. I can link to those.  

00:31:50 Glenn:       Do you have them on your website for CC?  

00:31:51 Narelle:     The Podcasts are, we're in the process of having the full transcripts of the podcast and you know, additional show notes and links. So that's all a work in progress for the CanineCeuticals website.  

00:32:00 Glenn:       You've got a media link there, haven't you?  

00:32:02 Narelle:      There's a resources tab. So under the resources tab. We'll be continually expanding that over the coming months, that's where you can find the podcast link and then resource guides, the cat dosing guide. I'm not sure if it's being put up. There should be a gut health guide as well. So yeah, lots of little bits and pieces that you can find there. Recipes and treats, things like that.  

00:32:22 Glenn:        Fantastic.  

00:32:24 Narelle:      So if you've got any questions about the show, you can email me at info@canineceuticals.com.au. You can jump onto the Facebook page, Natural Health for People and Pets, and definitely check out the website, canineceuticals.com au.  

00:32:39 Glenn:        Yep. And if you like the show, why not jump onto Spotify, Apple, or whatever podcast directory that you're listening to this from and leave a positive review.  

00:32:48 Narelle:       Yeah, that would be wonderful and greatly appreciated. Yeah, I'm still a relatively small and new business, so any support and positive reviews that I can get really do make a difference to the ability to grow the business and bring new products to market.  

00:33:00 Glenn:         Absolutely. Anything else?  

00:33:02 Narelle:       No, I think that's all for today and I'll, we'll get busy working on the next one. Sounds good. Thanks, everyone.