00:00:32 Glenn: Welcome back to Natural Health for People and Pets. I'm co-host of the show, Glen Cooke, and I'm gonna introduce the host of the show, Noelle Cooke.
00:00:40 Narelle: Hello everyone. Lovely to be back again.
00:00:42 Glenn: What have we got for today?
00:00:43 Narelle: Today we are joined by a special guest, Sara Kirk. Sara is the general manager of Precision Pharmaceuticals and Head Pharmacist for CBD Vets Australia. which we'll talk about in more detail shortly. Sara has a Bachelor of Pharmacy with honours from the University of Auckland and has been practising as a community-based pharmacist for the past 10 years, and for the past three years has been based in Sydney. So welcome Sara.
00:05:23 Sara: Thank you for having me, Narelle. Thank you.
00:05:25 Narelle: What a three years to be in Sydney. I think in the three years we've had mass fires, mass floods, we've had Covid and Lockdowns. Welcome to Australia.
00:05:35 Sara: Yeah, I think I've been truly welcomed. I think everyone tells me that I bought the bush fires. I bought the floods.
00:05:43 Glenn: Oh wow. What a burden to carry.
00:05:44 Sara: And New Zealand's been having amazing weather. So quite a good little intro to Australia. I came for the good weather, so I'm still waiting for it.
00:05:53 Narelle: Yeah, totally. So it'd be great if you could share a little bit more about your background, maybe your decision to go into pharmacy as a career. You've almost come to specialise in the use of CBD for both people and their pets because it is quite unique for a practitioner to be across both the human and the animal health world. So if you wanna just give us a little bit of background on who you are.
00:06:14 Sara: Yeah, for sure. As a young child, I've always been fascinated about the human body, but as a lot of us procrastinate, I thought becoming a doctor would just be too laborious for my liking and I procrastinate too much. So I was trying to figure out what would combine two passions of mine, one being the human body and the other being people. And my auntie is back in Iraq, so my background is from Iraq. She was a pharmacist that worked for their local government and she seemed to have it all. She still had time with her friends and family and she was rewarded by a job where she could see what her efforts produce, like the outcomes of dealing with patients and whatnot. Also, my oldest brother started off as a pharmacist as well in New Zealand, within the local government too. And yeah, I guess a ripple effect.
00:07:06 Sara: I jumped on the bandwagon and I haven't regretted it since I got into university. So yay, success. My parents were happy. I was a bit of a black sheep when growing up. And then I went into the community straight after university. And you know what, it was extremely rewarding. There is a lot of work that pharmacists do that people do not see in the background, and sometimes they're considered just as candy dispensers, which is a bit sad. But people who actually deal with us, they actually have complicated, complex issues, really appreciate the work that we do in the background. But I think as a pharmacist, I kind of, I mean, I'm a pharmacist who generally doesn't like medication. I kind of got fed up with the mentality that, and this is a generalisation that many people had, that there was a thing called a magic pill.
00:07:55 Sara: And as you are aware, there is no such thing. Every medication has a side effect. If it was perfect, people wouldn't be sadly dying. So I'm very much more into what can we do to prevent diseases? What can we do to help people that conventional medications are not doing? So, when I moved to Australia, and New Zealand's a still a bit quite restricted as to what you can do. But when I moved to Australia in 2019, I was amazed at how there were so many different options. Plant-based medications were, I mean, not readily available, but they existed. So I jumped on board into the medicinal cannabis space pretty much six months into moving. I just love that there are alternative medications or alternative therapies compared to your conventional therapies that give people options. And I think that's really crucial, allowing not only humans, but even within the pet space, giving them options to explore when conventional therapies sadly fail. And you know, it's a growing industry and everyone's learning. So it's not like, I mean, of course there are people who are what I would say masters within the cannabis space, but it's such an ever changing industry to be in. So it's quite exciting. We're all learning together, which makes it fun.
00:09:15 Narelle: It's actually hard to believe that medicinal cannabis was only legalised in Australia in late 2016 because there's been such exponential growth in, you know, the past five years. Is that what you're seeing in both the pet and human space with your prescribing?
00:09:31 Sara: Yeah, 100%. Like we see scripts come in from a variety of doctors, vets, people are slowly starting to jump on board. A lot of prescribers are quite hesitant when something is new. Especially when there's not enough clinical studies out there to determine the perfect dose. It's not like Panadol where you know, you know the standard dose, you know what you're gonna expect. There's still a lot of trial and error, but I believe slowly the stigma is being changed around medicinal cannabis. So people are more inclined to give it a go, which is great. I think stigma is probably one of the biggest things around CBD. You know, they just think it's weed. They think you're gonna get high, you know, just the typical assumptions of it. But I mean, even if you were to go jump onto the TGA website, you'll notice the number of approvals has drastically jumped from when it first came legal to now, like let's say December last year there were about 12,000 approvals that went through for final products, which is amazing. It means more doctors are more inclined to learn about it and patients are obviously seeing the benefits of it. So all in all, fantastic.
00:10:42 Narelle: You mentioned a good point about people being worried about getting high. So maybe we can start by just taking it right back to the basics, because one of the biggest confusions I see coming from my patients is around the differences between, say CBD oil and hemp seed oil, and the whole THC. So to give an example, I had a patient who thought she was giving her dog, an Australian patient, thought she was giving her dog a CBD infused treat that she was using in the hope that it would help with her dog's pain because the company selling the product, they use certain marketing jargon on the packet to give that impression of CBD. Yet if you looked at the actual ingredients it was only hemp seed oil because that's all they could legally do anyway. But the average consumer can easily be misled in this regard. So perhaps you can just take it back and give a brief outline of the difference between hemp seed oil and CBD oil.
00:11:36 Sara: We see this every day, and it's quite sad that people are easily misled, but I mean when it comes to marketing regulations, we can't change them, that's not what I mean. We can always advise. Look, I always look through websites and you know, advise TGA, like it's very misleading marketing, and unfortunately it takes a lot of time to educate, which I'm sure you do with your patients as well. The differences. So hemp seed oil does come from the small seeds of the cannabis sativa plant. And I think that's where the biggest confusion is because it comes from that plant. They think it's the same thing, which completely, it’s not at all. I mean, don't get me wrong, hemp seed oil has a really rich profile of nutrients and fatty acids, but it is not CBD. So the profile has no cannabinoids, and even if you were to get hundreds of mls of hemp seed oil, you are not gonna get the same amount as in one mil of CBD. And unfortunately it's considered a food grade product, so the marketing and regulations are a bit different to when you talk about the CBD oil itself. So the CBD oil comes from the actual leaves and flour of the plant, while hemp seed oil comes solely just from the seed of their plant. So they vary completely in their profiles.
00:12:53 Narelle: And it is important that more people understand that even though it's coming from the same plant, that they are very different products. And I mean I love hemp seed oil for dogs and humans, but you know, for dogs it is very nutrient rich and does have a great ratio of omega six to omega three fatty acids. And because of that, because they are different people can give both of them together. I should say, if someone's using hemp seed oil as an additional supplement to their dog's diet, for example, they can by all means incorporate CBD as well if they need it for the dog for a health state.
00:13:24 Sara: Yeah, 100%. We even have some vets who opt to have the CBD in a hemp seed oil carrier, so they get the best of both worlds. They get the supposed medicine, which is CBD, and they get the hemp seed oil as the carrier that it's dissolved in. So they still get that great nutrient-rich profile of the fatty acids and whatnot.
00:13:46 Narelle: Hmm. I love that. I love that combination.
00:18:22 Narelle: A lot of people, you know, they'll hear about the benefits of CBD for their particular health problem, or their pet's health problem for that matter. And then they'll go online and they'll just order some random CBD product usually from the States without really understanding how to dose it appropriately, or any cautions or contraindications that may apply to their particular situation. Not to mention purity and quality control issues with the product that they might be buying as a natural healthcare practitioner, you know, for both people and pets. At the end of the day, I wanna see improvements in my patients, which usually means, you know, incorporating a high quality product as part of their treatment plan. And from talking to patients over the years, many of them simply don't realise that if I can say ‘oils ain't oils’ so to speak.
00:19:14 Narelle: Yeah. And that, you know, quality, purity, strength. I mean it can vary considerably between different brands, even if they appear at face value to be the same thing. So they may not be getting the results that they want because they're using an inferior product, but they just don't realise it. So they give up and say, well I tried CBD and it didn't work for me. So can you perhaps talk a little bit more about the quality control processes that CBD Vets Australia use in their work and the product that they supply?
00:19:47 Sara: Yes. All the products that they supply come through Precision Pharmaceuticals, which is what I lead, as you mentioned prior. So we have to abide by TGA regulations and all their requirements. The sad thing is, when you see all these hemp-based products that are promoting themselves or marketing themselves as CBD is that you have no idea what is actually in those products. It could be chemicals, heavy metals, pesticides, all they could actually be doing is causing harm, not only to themselves, but you know their furry friends, which is not what you want. All our raw material that comes through Precision Pharmaceuticals is all made in a GMP manufacturing facility. You're guaranteed purity, you're guaranteed that it is exactly what you're getting. We've done all the testing and that's also the difference when people say, oh, why is CBD in Australia more expensive than online?
00:20:43 Sara: Well that's because you're actually getting exactly what's on the label. We've done and abided by all Australian regulations to ensure as much as we can that this a safe product. I mean, I don't like to use the word safe because unfortunately people can also die from paracetamol, but in terms of the regulations, it's all abided by. And that does take a lot of time and money. And that's a huge difference between a subpar product that you buy online with a fancy label and they do a really great job with marketing. But at the end of the day, I would rather know what's exactly going into my body. You know, we have certificates of analysis, certificates of conformance, and we can provide those to any doctors and vets that are curious to see what our products are like. So that's never not something that we provide if questioned for. So there's a lot of things that go on in the background, ensuring as safe as possible product out there that doesn't contain any nasties. And as you know, within the animal space, they react to especially THC, quite differently. And there's some products out there that say it's just CBD, but you have no idea what's actually inside it 'cause you'll never be given the documents when requested.
00:21:56 Glenn: I don't think people realise or even sometimes appreciate how tough and how scrutinising organisations such as the TGA are, and how many hoops that people have to jump through. For example, a colleague of mine introduced Viracide, for cleaning, for disinfection, especially in zoological spaces. And he pretty much said at the end of it, I think he had to speak to the AVPMA, the TGA, and there were quite a lot of hoops to jump through. But at the end of it, he said “it was almost not worth bringing it in because of the high level of scrutiny that I had to go through to get it in”. And he said, but it's really like a huge big green tick once you get it. Because he said they ask a lot of questions, they go into a lot of heavy detail, they really scrutinise every hook and turn that you're doing. And that's why sometimes it drives the price up, which people don't realise is there is a lot of work to actually register a product in Australia. And I know that from Narelle’s past, that's what she was involved in when she was a regulatory affairs officer, she had to primarily go backwards and forwards with the AVPMA all the time.
00:23:06 Glenn: I remember her coming home from work and dinner table conversations about how stringent they were and how difficult they made the process, but at the same time she appreciated it because it wasn't just letting something get through that wasn't supposed to get through. It was something that they scrutinised heavily. A lot of eyes were across it, and a lot of detail were across it. Then finally they said, yep, this satisfies our requirements.
00:23:34 Narelle: I remember one submission I made for an approval for a new chemical, new active ingredient actually in Australia with the work I was doing. And I think I submitted 27 ream boxes full of data, like printed data, to satisfy their requirements. People don't realise, it is a lot of work and that's why we're so lucky in Australia and it's why I, as a practitioner, can prescribe products that aren't TGA approved. But they'd be crazy to, because the quality control of our TGA approved products is just second to none around the world. So it's really great peace of mind for patients that they are getting that quality. That isn't always what you're getting when you're buying products from overseas.
00:24:12 Sara: 100%. And you've gotta be really passionate to put in that workload. In terms of CBD, it's still unregistered, but the regulations and all the conformities that you have to go to, it is time consuming and draining. But yeah, you do feel rewarded once you get the green tick. But I'm, and I'm sure you are aware, Narelle, even once you get the green tick, you know, they do batch testing randomly. Every year you've got it to ensure that you're still meeting the same standards. So it's not just a one-off tick and you know, you can go and change everything you're doing. It's constantly meeting the demands and regulations that TGA set. And they're always changing within the CBD space as well, which sometimes can make it hard, but at least it keeps you on your toes and you are always on the top of the game to make sure this is the best product that you can get into Australia to service the people, or the pets, that require it. So yeah, you gotta have a lot of passion, but it's definitely worth it in the end.
00:25:14 Narelle: So from my conversations previously with Dr. Lee, he was talking that CBD is probably most often prescribed for pets for conditions such as anxiety, epilepsy and pain states, and I imagine it's a similar situation for humans. What's the broader reach for CBD in people in terms of the research and different health states that it's most indicated for?
00:25:38 Sara: I mean, look, the TGA has a list of let's say, approved conditions, which is basically what you've mentioned. You know, you've got anxiety, osteoarthritis, epilepsy, chronic pain, but then you've got other conditions that, I mean, I won't say there is enough clinical evidence to show that it's, you know, the bee's knees, but that just requires a lot more testing. But you see doctors prescribing it for MS, fibromyalgia, degenerative pain and even less commonly in autism and blood sugar control. There's a lot of things that you can use it for.
00:26:15 Narelle: I didn't know about the blood sugar regulation in some of those less commonly known uses for CBD.
00:26:22 Sara: I think, even in animals, I've seen vets prescribe it for skin conditions such as eczema dermatitis, very rarely seen in the human space. But because CBD does have anti-inflammatory properties, some vets do use it in those instances as well. But again, is there enough clinical significance to slap that on a label? No, but it's all about trial and error.
00:26:46 Narelle: Absolutely. For someone who's suffering from a condition that ticks the box. What would be a general timeframe for someone to start noticing an improvement in their symptoms once they commence CBD treatment?
00:27:09 Sara: I mean, not one size fits all. There's no textbook answer for that. Generally, from the patients I've spoken with, or you know from pharmacists telling me, some patients are able to see an effect within a couple of days. And then there's another lot of patients that don't see an effect ‘till 14 days ‘till it's built up into the system. So CBD is not one of those medications where it's ‘take on a need to basis’, let's say two tablets of Panadol for instance. It is something that you gotta take regularly to notice an effect. So because of that we always generally advise that it can take two weeks to see some sort of effect.
00:29:51 Sara: So CBD Vets Australia, we're not vets, number one. There's a lot of patient inquiries, and we always help out pet owners by putting them in contact with a vet who is confidently able to prescribe CBD. We don't tell them that they're eligible, we don't do that. We get them to go see a vet for them to assess the situation, but we help in terms of getting that patient, getting that pet owner, to take their pet to see a vet. And then obviously the vet, if they deem them eligible, they'll send us the prescription and we'll forward it on to a pharmacy that's able to provide that service for them with the, you know, GMP products.
00:30:32 Narelle: Yeah, great. From my experience with CBD Vets Australia, the postage is amazingly quick too. I think I just ordered another 50 mil on Monday and I think I had it by Wednesday. So I was quite impressed. That was coming from Queensland I think the pharmacy was, yeah,
00:30:48 Sara: One of the pharmacies we have that does that, helps with 70 vets, is based in Queensland. Everything's included, so you get express shipping with all the orders placed with our affiliated pharmacies.
00:31:01 Narelle: You know that practitioners will be looking for any cautions and contraindications that might exist with CBD. But are there any obvious ones that people should just be aware of generally in case they're just buying randomly online?
00:31:24 Sara: So there are obviously a few, you know, obvious ones like you shouldn't be drinking alcohol with CBD and that's generally in the initial stages as well. More so because drowsiness is common. But it, I mean it diminishes as you titrate your dosing. In terms of interactions with medication, this is one that I would always advise patients to discuss with their doctors and that type of conversations that they would have. But generally, and I can't explain this in layman terms so I apologise, CBD is a potent inhibitor of a cytochrome enzyme, specifically CYP3A4 and CYP2D6. So I would always advise caution to be taken when they're co prescribed together, and it just means that when they're tweaking doses, they just have to slowly titrate the CBD dose as much as possible compared to a standard dosing regimen.
00:32:25 Sara: But common medications to look out for which your prescribing doctor would be aware of as antidepressants, for example, fluoxetine, you've got benzos and even some heart medication. So our cannabis practitioners always take this into account when prescribing CBD to anyone and of course vets would do the same. And yeah, I always suggest to take baseline tests for animals, especially like your liver function tests, things like that, just so you know where they're at in the beginning, and then maybe reassess three to six months time, just to ensure everything is all in order.
00:33:04 Narelle: That's great. I'm sure our listeners will be Googling the cytochrome enzymes.
00:33:10 Sara: Basically the enzymes in the liver that break down medication. And some can inhibit, some can induce and yeah, it just plays with the levels of concentrations of medication in the body. Maybe that sounds a bit better than cytochrome enzymes.
00:33:27 Narelle: I speak a little bit, I don't think I have on the podcast, but to my patients in person. I talk about the phase one and phase two liver detoxification pathways, and any foods or herbs for example that might be up or down regulating phase one. So no, it's great that you've mentioned that. So is there anything else, Sara, that you'd like to share about CBD Vets Australia with the listeners today?
00:33:49 Sara: If anyone has any questions, feel free to jump on the website. We've got a great team that's ready to help if people are curious or just want some information. 00:34:59 Narelle: I think it’s an amazing service that we can offer clients and pets. Definitely. For anyone who's interested, again, it’s cbdvetsaustralia.com au. It's been so great having you on the show today Sara, and just explaining the options that are available out there now to people that they are likely unaware of. Definitely happy from this end to continue to share that that's available as a service. So yeah, really appreciate your time today.
00:35:28 Sara: Oh, thank you for having me. I've thoroughly enjoyed myself.
00:35:33 Glenn: That's fine, that's all part of the podcast experience and it's great to know, especially I think the good pickup with the conversation between you and Narelle. Especially alleviating that concern that your dog's not gonna get high off CBD. There's a conversation that I have with people. I mean, I've been educated into what CBD is through a process of time as compared to THC, which is not in CBD, which you have just explained so eloquently. So it's very important for people to know that it's a great oil for the medicinal purposes that it's serving. And it's really great to see that it's on the rise and that there will be more access to it over time. I'm actually really glad I've seen so much supportive evidence about it. I've seen people online. I was watching a lady with very bad Parkinson's; she couldn't write anything at all, but if she took some CBD oil, and she spread it onto an avocado and put it on a cracker and she ate it. Within an hour, she could actually write perfect cursive.
00:36:33 Sara: That's amazing to hear.
00:36:34 Glenn: It is. And she said, this is me. This is my normal life. And she said, this is why I'm so outraged at the holdup for CBD for access to people. And she said, because when I do use it, when I travel to another country and I access CBD, which my son got me onto, she said, all the treatment, all the drugs make me sick. And she said, but CBD is actually transforming my life. I actually have control of my life again. I can access my limbs properly, I can stop tremors and shakes. And she said, I deliberately took myself off it, to show you what I look like. And she showed the before and after, and it was just breathtaking. It's crazy. And that's why the importance of the rise of naturally produced medicinal products such as this should be far, and readily accessible to the public.
00:37:18 Sara: 100%. And look, you know, the TGA are down-regulated low dose CBD. So, I mean, I'm sure everyone's patiently waiting for a product to be available, but I honestly dunno how long that will take. The example you mentioned about the lady, it's amazing. I mean, we have dogs, we've got pet owners telling us their dogs are a completely different dog. No more anxiety. They're more engaged. They're acting like how they used to, they do zoomies around the house and they're no longer just moping around. I mean, we've even got within the human space, female patients, male patients, so consumed with stress and anxiety and very depressive symptoms, that have just changed their whole life around simply because of a plant-based oil that's given them a new lease of life. And it's so rewarding to be part of that process with them giving them that opportunity to access it. It's just amazing. And I do hope more red tape keeps coming off. So more and more people have that ability to try it. mentioned in the long run.
00:38:38 Glenn: Well thanks for your input into it and all the hard work that you and your team are doing because the more people that access it, and the more it starts to move onto the market, hopefully that will drive price down as well. And a hundred percent yeah, it will make it far more accessible, both as an option to take and also to be able to afford it. Hopefully the government gets behind it and backs it.
00:38:59 Sara: Just like how there's a lot of backend work that we do, that the general public can't see as to why it takes so long, and the cost involved. It's the same with the government and the TGA. There's a lot of hoops that they've gotta jump in order to change legislation, but I think we're on the right track. It takes time, but I mean even from when it became legal first, to today there have been major changes within the field and they're all positive. So I'm hopeful that within the next couple of years it will change again.
00:39:28 Narelle: Well thank you Sara again for joining us today and we wish you all the best in your work that you are doing and hopefully we'll get to chat with someone again down the track from CBD Vets Australia.
00:39:40 Sara: Perfect. Anytime. Thank you guys for having me. Thank
00:39:43 Glenn: Thank you so much, Sara.
00:39:44 Sara: Tara, have a good one.
00:39:46 Glenn: Okay, that was a great interview with Sara.
00:39:48 Narelle: It was. It's so fascinating and I really do hope that the CBD industry progresses to make it even more available to the average consumer because it's about quality of life. I mean, we've seen it with Opie. We hear stories about, I mean we don't need to use CBD for any health problems, but we do hear those stories of the miraculous transformations almost that people are experiencing their quality of life when they do start using it.
00:40:09 Glenn: That's right. And full disclosure for anybody who's listening to this, so we paid for our CBD oil, it wasn't given to us or sponsored to us. It was something that we paid full price for, to use. So this is not something that we're just doing because we feel like we're obligated to do it. We're doing it because we firsthand can see the transformation of our own dog. The transformation of how we are seeing the behaviour of our dogs, the livelihood of the dogs, and you know, like we utilise that tag in your product CanineCeuticals, which is allowing dogs to live their best life. And that's what we're seeing with these other products as well. Opie's a happier dog because he's been on CBD. So speaking of CanineCeuticals, to wrap up the show, tell us about your product range because they're selling really well. You've got some really, really great reviews coming in from people who're using 'em, including my mum. So Mum rang me the other day after she got your product. I think you sent her the Gut Protect for Bonnie.
00:41:13 Narelle: Gut Protect, very good.
00:41:14 Glenn: Yeah, so my mum rang me and she told me all about her little dog called Bonnie. And she told me all about the problems that she's having. She's been back and forth to vets, still getting loose poos, still getting upset tummy. She said to me, this product that Narelle’s bringing out, do you think it would help Bonnie? And I said, I'm not the one to ask, speak to Narelle, she will tell you all about it. And Narelle pretty much spoke to my mum, sent down the product, and Mum's been on it for a couple of weeks. And then she rang me up one day while I was travelling between jobs and said to me, that product is just amazing. She said, Bonnie's back to her normal self, she's back thriving, she's a happy dog. She said it's changed her behaviour. She's no longer moping around, her head's up. Her bowel is functioning properly. She said all the things that I was concerned about seem to have all gone. And she said, I can't thank Narelle enough. She said, it's just amazing how the product has transformed her.
00:42:04 Narelle: CanineCeuticals, I've got a wide range of products within the brand, but the Gut Protect is by far the best seller. And I get feedback every day from people saying, oh my gosh, I can't believe it's only been a few days. And it's such, you know, it's made such a difference. That's my baby product, because that's the one I created because of Ladybug fundamentally to give her the quality of life to keep her going, given her spinal injury and really passionate about that product. And it just goes to show, again, it reiterates the importance of gut health on overall health, not just poos. I mean it's awesome for poos. So I always like to talk about poo, but it reaches all different areas of health, immune health, skin health, things like that. But CanineCeuticals got another example of feedback I got just yesterday for the PEA Plus, Palmitoylethanolamide, product and for mobility in an older dog.
00:42:58 Narelle: You know, the owner messaged me and said, oh, the dog was playing with a ball. And they're like, oh, I can't believe the difference is like a puppy again. And that was really quickly, that change. I normally wouldn't expect it so soon, but every dog's individual, like every human, responds individually to different products. So it just really makes my day when I get those testimonials back in. For anyone who's interested, they can go to canineceuticals.com au. and there's products for all different areas for nutritional support, for joint health, for immune health. We've got the liquid herbal range, which is really popular. Things like Milk Thistle, because you know, we live in a toxic world and a lot of dogs have a very heavy toxic burden on them. And definitely the gut health range is really popular.
00:43:51 Glenn: Well, all the details will be in the show notes, including the contact details for Sara. You'll be able to click on that and follow any of the links that are available or being discussed in the show, including all our sponsors.
00:44:03 Narelle: And if you have any questions for me, you can email me at email@example.com. if you want more information about the podcast, or if you wanna post a question about the podcast. You can go to the Facebook page, Natural Health for People and Pets, like my Instagram page, and CanineCeuticals. Jump on my Facebook pages, lots of social media options. Get onto all of them.
00:44:27 Glenn: And if you're happy with the product, of course send in a review.00:44:30 Narelle: Leave a review on the website. if you love a product. That's it for the show today. Thank you everyone. Bye.
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